DCS: M-III by Razbam ?

[OziRekt]

We are currently weighting the idea of creating the Atar 9C-3 engine version only which will be the 1973 model that took part in the Yum Kippur war, since it will make it more open to other versions (AFAIK).

 

Prowler

 

Awesome idea! I how plenty of documentation in English for a Mirage IIIE/O. Flight manuals, weapon employment and performance data

[Angelthunder]

We are currently weighting the idea of creating the Atar 9C-3 engine version only which will be the 1973 model that took part in the Yum Kippur war, since it will make it more open to other versions (AFAIK).

 

Prowler

So there won't be a be an Atar 9B jet pipe engine variant that was used in the Six Day War.That will be disappointing.:(

[HAE5904]

We are currently weighting the idea of creating the Atar 9C-3 engine version only which will be the 1973 model that took part in the Yum Kippur war, since it will make it more open to other versions (AFAIK).

 

Prowler

Ridiculous, the IIIC NEVER received the 9C-3 engine during the Yum Kippur war. That engine change came only some years later, during the mid 1970's.

[HAE5904]

There are only two Shahaks known to have received the 9C engine on sqn maintenance level, Shahak (1)07 and (1)47, mainly because those squadrons had received Neshers as well. Pictures of these two exist, taken during October 1973.

[jojo]

There are only two Shahaks known to have received the 9C engine on sqn maintenance level, Shahak (1)07 and (1)47, mainly because those squadrons had received Neshers as well. Pictures of these two exist, taken during October 1973.

 

Israeli Mirage and Nesher Aces in Osprey's collection pictures:

Shahak 59 101sqn, Harzor air base, 6 october 1973, with 12 kills marking.

 

So at least 3 :D

 

Also think on this guys:

We don't have full set of Six Days war and Yum Kippur war planes. The only opponent in DCS World is MiG 21Bis which is a more powerful late variant.

And no matter what you think, this is what people will fight in DCS.

 

So:

1- it's not ridiculous. Some of them flew with Atar 9C-3

2- Atar 9C-3 is better suited to DCS Wolrd.

 

It's not like it was a Yum Kippur war or Six Day war based simulator. It's a single module for a sim whom only desert map is Nevada...think about it !

Edited July 15, 2017 by jojo

[WR269]

With or without the 9C I will buy the MIII. Seriously, feel sorry for developers who try to please everyone and then realise there is no pleasing some people.

I love the MIII, will buy whatever module or variant they decide to make.

 

 

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[Angelthunder]

With or without the 9C I will buy the MIII. Seriously, feel sorry for developers who try to please everyone and then realise there is no pleasing some people.

I love the MIII, will buy whatever module or variant they decide to make.

 

 

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Well,until Prowler111 confirms that they'll later add the Atar 9B Mirage IIIC variant.It's pure speculation at this point.Although I would be overjoyed if they did.

[Skjold]

Personally i find the Mirage III really interesting, it fits well enough with a bunch of other planes currently in the game and has a very interesting combat history.

[HAE5904]

Israeli Mirage and Nesher Aces in Osprey's collection pictures:

Shahak 59 101sqn, Harzor air base, 6 october 1973, with 12 kills marking.

 

So at least 3 :D

 

Except it's a drawing..... go to page 77 of that same book and you'll learn it had a take-off accident on October the 7th....and wasn't repaired untill the war had ended.

 

In the book "The Israeli AF in the Yom Kippur War (Isradecal Publications)" all events are recorded , and there's a picture of the Shahak 59 being lifted by a crane on October the 7th..... fitted with a -9B engine.

 

The drawing in the Osprey publication is how she looked after the war and refitted with the -9C engine.

 

 

There's still doubt if there were actually two re-engined, the picture I saw of a 117 Squadron Shahak might have been taken long after the war, as during October they only operated the Shahak. Though the one of 101 Squadron (who operated both the Shahak and Nesher) is correct. Not by purpose but by accident. In the heat of war, time pressured, the crew who did a required engine change on the Shahak, accidentally had fitted a -9C of the Nesher. The crew, puzzled why it didn't match some of the system connections, bented the pipes and stuff to make it fit. Simply as there was no time to correct their mistake.

 

A project existed before the October conflict for changing the Shahak engine with the -9C version as that engine was build under unofficial license by Israel, and already in use with the Nesher.

But the Yom Kippur war delayed this project for obvious reasons.

 

Cheers,

Hank

Bewaren

Bewaren

[jojo]

Ok I admit very few Shahak, probably 2, used Atar 9C during Yum Kippur war.

 

Yet I maintain my argument. We don't have the correct MiG 21 variant for that period either, nor the appropriate map. The Mirage IIICJ will have to face MiG 21bis.

So the little amount of extra performance will be welcomed in DCS World.

[HAE5904]

You're right about that. One thing that lacks development are sceneries....

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Hopefully at the end of the year well see the hormuz map and then it shall be set or if they give the dev kit to map makers.

 

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[Angelthunder]

I still plan on getting the Mirage III but i'll just call it the EJ instead,since the aircraft that Razbam is making,clearly looks like the E variant with the Atar 9C.I hope they'll develop other Mirage III versions including the Atar 9B version used by the Israelis in the 6 Day War and the French Air Force.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Angelthunder

[jojo]

It would be totally unfair.

 

The difference between Mirage IIIC and Mirage IIIE isn't just about the engine.

 

The Mirage IIIE has a different weapon and navigation system, more internal fuel and heavier airframe.

 

Then the Israeli did replaced the Atar 9B with Atat 9C to solve some reliability issues and improve performances. The question is just: When and how many ?

 

Finally if we were speaking about a full Six Day War or Yum Kippur War based simulation I would support Atar 9B.

But it's an isolated module in DCS World, it's main adversary will be MiG 21Bis, much later variant and more powerful. And we won't have the correct map either...

 

So we're not talking about fitting M53-P2 engine to Mirage IIICJ, but just an engine that started to be fitted by the end of 1973.

The first test began by 1969.

 

Bottom line: It's still the Shahak !

[HAE5904]

Simply put, the 9C engine used AFTER the 1973 conflict (in fact they started the conversation mid 1974) had only seen combat in 1982...when F-15 already had taken over the fighter role.

 

The Israelis did not change to the 9C engine for reliability issues neither for improved performance gains, but simply as they build the 9C engine by themselves (circumventing an French embargo) for the Neshers already. For performance gains they switched to a more powerful engine, the J79 that eventually became the Kfir. But that's a different story.

 

The Shahak IIICJ with the original - 9B engine will be build for DCS.

 

Cheers

Hank

[jojo]

The engine story isn't that simple, neither is the alleged French embargo.

 

The test began with Atar 9C-3, supposed to be built under license in Swiss (originally for Mirage IIIS).

But Shahak re-exported to Argentina were reported as fitted with Atar 9C-5 only built by Snecma...

 

The "built by themselves" is more a cover story for French kit assembly.

You don't build a jet engine industry from scratch like that...

[Spectrum Legacy]

Nobody asked about my opinion regarding the engine choice yet, thus I feel offended... deathly so!

 

Haha nooo, seriously now! I'm sure the devs will choose the version they have better access to. I mean the squabble and theorycrafting may just as well continue well into the next year or two, but does it really matter? If you like the plane in question, you will get it regardless of the decision in the end.

 

P.S. Thanks for the sneakpeek of those early polygons - the madame looks lovely! 1st, 2nd & 3rd gen.jets, unite!

[mrmach]

Mirage IIIE

[HAE5904]

The engine story isn't that simple, neither is the alleged French embargo.

 

The test began with Atar 9C-3, supposed to be built under license in Swiss (originally for Mirage IIIS).

But Shahak re-exported to Argentina were reported as fitted with Atar 9C-5 only built by Snecma...

 

The "built by themselves" is more a cover story for French kit assembly.

You don't build a jet engine industry from scratch like that...

 

 

Wow jojo...for you being a Frenchman and not knowing French aviation related history??

I'm amazed dude, honestly I am. You say "alleged" French embargo, in other words you say there wasn't an embargo? Wow, so you neither know where the Mirage 5F for service in your French Air Force actually came from?? History lesson number 1.... The Mirage 5 was specifically designed by Dassault for Israel based on their requested requirements. They were all build as the -5J . But...and you better pay attention, due to a FRENCH EMBARGO imposed by De Gaulle after the 6 Day War,never delivered. Instead your French Air Force pressed them unwillingly in service as the -5F.

 

Lesson number 2....Never heard about the Swiss engineer Alfred Frauenknecht? No you apperantly didn't. He was an engineer working for the Sulzer organisation in Switzerland that was building the Atar 9C under license. Frauenknecht provided Israel the blue prints for the engine (as well as for the Mirage IIIS).

 

Lesson number 3.... Beit Shemesh, the IAI engine division , was already started to build some Atar 9C3 components (as part of an offset arrangement for the Mirage 5J contract). Eventually they build their own complete engines, first using some openly imported components from France, eventually building all components themselves! Their first complete engine ran in 1968..... thanks to the provided blue-prints.

 

This is all well known, and well written in aviation related books.

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT throwing mud.:music_whistling:

 

Cheers,

Hank

[jojo]

I say "alleged embargo", because despite embargo there are evidences that the cooperation and deliveries didn't stop.

 

Don't be amazed, I'm just not as naive as you, and books are full of cover story about weapons deliveries and embargo to Israel, Irak or Argentina...:music_whistling:

Nesher airframe were built from parts provided by Aerospatiale. And at the time it was a state owned company. So much for embargo !

 

Anyway, whatever the engine, I'm sure it will be a great module.

Edited September 19, 2016 by jojo

[jojo]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?100474-Nesher&p=1583185#post1583185

For those who are interested...

[HAE5904]

Quite interesting Jojo, especially if you read all of it, one contradicting the other one etc etc. Most funny is the fact that it's a forum of an aviation publisher, where posts are made /replied by folks who hadn't read any of the publisher book/articles and stuff!!

 

Non the less, even though I'm part of it, maybe it's better to get back to the topic.

 

Cheers

[Paganus]

While our 2 engine experts have ended the conversation in total conflagration, one thing is clear. Both engines were used in the M3 clearing the way for Razbam to just pick the one they want to do! ;)

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

What's the ftlb of thrust difference between the two turbines? I'm just looking forward to the flight model seeing as it's not fbw?

 

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[Prowler111]

Just to make it clear:

We go with the 9B and from there on, we´ll see how far we can evolve within the same module.

JoJo and Hae are just to avid avition fanatics, too bad you can´t put expressions to the written word, because i pretty much know it would sound like 2 guys over beers discussing about soccer..it´s all about passion

Prowler