Questions for RL Heli Pilots

[Ligeti]

I see there are quite a few real life helicopter pilots that use DCS and post here, I have a few questions for you...

 

1: If you fly, or flew helicopters for a job why spend your free time flying a simulator? What do you get out of the experience?

 

2: Is flying helis in DCS easier or more difficult than flying helis in real life? (Complicated question I'm guessing.)

 

3: If you've flown professional/expensive hardware simulators how different are they to DCS?

 

4: If you were giving advice to someone who was an excellent DCS heli pilot but had never flown the real thing and wanted to learn, what would be the main things that would need learning or adjusting?

 

5: Related to previous question, could a good DCS heli pilot get in a real heli with no experience and take off and fly with no real issues?

 

6: What things would you like to see in sims of the future to make the experience more realistic?

 

I have more questions but that should do for now. Any responses appreciated, or just ignore me :-)

[outlawal2]

I have 20+ hours in an R22 and I can tell you that DCS is the closest thing to the real deal as I have ever seen. I have flown all kinds of flight simulators pretty much my whole life and figured that when I tried the R22 it "Would be challenging at first" but "Shouldn't take too long to master"

 

Aaand that was utter bullshit. I still do not have the hover down in the real thing and yet I can hover every module I own.. I CAN say that DCS has been a great help to me with regards to the real thing, but as far as the R22 goes it is damned twitchy! I chuckle at all of the posts about the Gazelle because it is pretty close to how the R22 feels. My instructor told me early on to not try to turn by moving the stick, turn by THINKING about moving the stick.. This helped a lot.. VERY tiny movements..

 

Anyway, in my case I fly DCS because it is a LOT cheaper than the real thing.. I am no longer flying the real thing because I ran out of cash. Time is purchased in blocks and when it came time to buy the next block, the rate had gone up $100 per hour meaning it was going to cost $423 per flight HOUR to continue training. Since this was simply a fun thing for me to do once I retire, I decided that I can't justify that kind of outlay.. So I walked away and built a kick ass PC for use as a simulator and I can buy a lot of gear for the same cost as a couple of HOURS flight time and get a LOT of use out of all of it for a long time..

 

I do miss it, but not $423/ hour worth!

 

So in a nutshell.. Can you fly DCS and go fly a real helicopter? I say probably not.. I would say almost definitely not an R22 as that is the twitchiest thing in the world... 10 seconds in on a hover attempt and you start oscillating like a grand father clock..

 

I have no time in larger helicopters and as I understand it from those that have flown them, they are less twitchy than the R22 so maybe someone very skilled at DCS Huey may be able to pick up a larger helicopter fairly quickly, but I think the vast majority would still struggle...

 

There are many aspects that a simulator cannot simulate such as the noise, the change in your internal balance as the machine moves and turns and rocks etc.. Hell the NOISE is distracting even with the headset on...

 

A LOT of sensory overload involved when flying the real thing that you just can't simulate

..

Awesome fun though...

And DCS does an amazing job and I am hooked for life!

[Ligeti]

Good info thanks Outlawal.

 

If I get the money and time I may take some lessons, just for fun.

 

Interesting what you say about the R22, have you seen how those pilots on cattle farms in Australia throw the R22 around? I'm guessing that takes some serious practise and a lot of guts (or a slightly suicidal mindset.)

[cichlidfan]

Good post outlawal2. :thumbup:

[Ligeti]

Also re the number of hours, in the UK Army Air Core, according to a 90s BBC documentary, trainee pilots were expected to go solo in 11hrs IIRC. I guess they only select candidates with good hand eye coordination etc for training, but still, that's not much time.

[outlawal2]

11 hours would be way too early (IMHO) for an R22 pilot, but since I don't know what the UK uses for training, maybe theirs is a bit more forgiving, I don't know.. (I think the US uses the Schweitzer Hughes I believe and it is purported to be more stable and easier to pickup than the R22..) Also, it is possible that they have a huge amount of pilot wannabes and use the very quick solo requirement to weed them out...

[Ligeti]

11 hours would be way too early (IMHO) for an R22 pilot, but since I don't know what the UK uses for training, maybe theirs is a bit more forgiving, I don't know.. (I think the US uses the Schweitzer Hughes I believe and it is purported to be more stable and easier to pickup than the R22..) Also, it is possible that they have a huge amount of pilot wannabes and use the very quick solo requirement to weed them out...

 

It was a Gazelle in the 90s.

 

I don't have a driver's licence and feel like I'd need more than 11hrs practise before feeling qualified to drive safely on the road, a helicopter would another level of difficulty and danger.

[outlawal2]

My SWAG would be the Gazelle would be a lot easier to learn with than the R22, but I still think 11 hours for solo is nuts! Maybe 20... (I know you can legally obtain your license here in the states with 30 hours I believe, but everyone I have ever talked to, both instructors and other pilots have all said they don't know anyone personally that has done it that fast...) I think one of the instructors said he had a pilot that solod at 36 hours but that was it...

[Ligeti]

They have a lot more training after those 11hrs before they're qualified army pilots, but they're expected to take off, fly some circuits and land, all solo with only 11hrs training.

 

At least that was the situation in the 90s, don't know how it is today. If you search 'Flying Soldiers' on YouTube you'll find the series (it's in six parts, they start flying the Gazelle towards the end of the second part).

[Bearfoot]

They qualify on light aircraft first, so those 11-hours are not aviation hours, just Gazelle hours. Still intense. I guess with a large pool of qualified folks and relatively few slots, they can afford to be selective and go for the quick studies / naturals?

[Yurgon]

Good thread, and good info, outlawal2, thanks a lot!

 

(I only wish the forum would allow to +rep posts in Chit Chat. Anyway, if you get +rep from me in a totally different post, it's probably because of this ;)).

 

That BBC documentary was quite interesting. When they first talked about solo'ing after 11 hours I thought I must have gotten that wrong, but it's actually what the new pilots had to do, after having flown fixed wings for a short time (in those, they were expected to fly the first solo after only 5 hours, nuts!).

 

After watching the documentary, I'm sure the plan is to weed out anyone who's not learning things quickly enough. Pilots who struggle after 11 hours may get some additional training, but once that's over, they're either ready for solo or they get tossed out. And that's by far not the last hurdle they have to overcome. The amount, and speed, of learning, that's just insane, I don't know how anyone could keep up with that, while being tested and graded all the time, for everything.

 

Anyway, back on topic. I've asked myself those same questions, and I also think I'd fail controlling a real helicopter -- maybe not in the sense of "getting myself killed in two seconds", although that's surely a possibility, but in the sense of making it look like controlled flight.

 

I recently visited a friend and flew the Gazelle at his computer. His throttle axis (collective) is reversed, and that alone made it terribly difficult for me to control the chopper -- my collective axis is not reversed. My reasoning is that "throttle idle" equals "collective bottom", and "full throttle" equals "full collective". I think it's easier this way, but I'm also thinking about reversing the collective axis just because the movement would then be a little bit closer to the real thing.

In addition, he has a Warthog with extension (mine doesn't) and has a different axis setup (no curve, reduced saturation).

 

Ultimately, I was able to take off, fly a circuit and land the Gazelle, but it was pretty close to crashing a few times. Everything just felt so different. Add to that the insane noise, the vibration, the actual feeling of acceleration, and I fully believe that flying a real chopper would provide a huge amount of sensory overload, just like outlawal2 says.

 

Still, I'd love to try one day... ;)

[cichlidfan]

I don't remember which book but I recall reading that a Vietnam era US Army Warrant Officer did not have a very large number of hours in the Huey before soloing. Wish I could recall the title or author.

 

Now, where are my memory pills. ;)

[Yurgon]

Robert Mason, Chickenhawk?

 

I think Randy R. Zahn wrote something similar in "Snake Pilot: Flying The Cobra Attack Helicopter In Vietnam", as did Hugh L. Mills in "Low Level Hell". IIRC correctly Zahn started out as a Huey pilot before he was allowed to transition to the Cobra, while Mills exclusively flew the OH-6.

 

Besides, who needs memory (pills) when we have the Internet? :D

[Bearfoot]

I don't remember which book but I recall reading that a Vietnam era US Army Warrant Officer did not have a very large number of hours in the Huey before soloing. Wish I could recall the title or author.

 

Now, where are my memory pills. ;)

 

According to Osprey's "US Helicopter Pilot in Vietnam" (https://www.amazon.com/US-Helicopter-Pilot-Vietnam-Warrior/dp/1846032296?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0 ; which provides a fantastically detailed description of all aspects of a Vietnam-era Huey pilot career, from training to deployment and operations), it could be as little as 8 hours:

 

"""

Within about two weeks students had accumulated the requisite ten hours of solo flight time. A few gifted students might have been allowed to solo after eight hours. When the student felt ready and was given the nod by his IP, he would be cleared through the stage field tower to make three circuits. On the way back to base the bus would detour to the Mineral Wells Holiday Inn where soloing students were dunked in the pool in their flight suits.

"""

[Bushmanni]

Well thought out structured training with an instructor produces results much faster than the typical sim pilot way of hopping in the pit and learning by trial and error.

 

And about reversing the collective axis. I have my collective axis set so that when my HOTAS throttle handle is at idle the collective is at bottom. I have flown like this for years. I once had an opportunity to try out a collective and I could use it without any problems despite having used to the throttle collective axis in "wrong" direction. Collective stick just feels so different and intuitive that the muscle memory from using a throttle handle doesn't even try to kick in.

[Aginor]

Same technique and reasoning here.

@ topic: interesting questions, good thread!

And also thanks for the answer, outlawal2!

[Yurgon]

Collective stick just feels so different and intuitive that the muscle memory from using a throttle handle doesn't even try to kick in.

 

Good to know, thanks! :thumbup:

[AG-51_Razor]

I see there are quite a few real life helicopter pilots that use DCS and post here, I have a few questions for you...

 

1: If you fly, or flew helicopters for a job why spend your free time flying a simulator? What do you get out of the experience?

 

2: Is flying helis in DCS easier or more difficult than flying helis in real life? (Complicated question I'm guessing.)

 

3: If you've flown professional/expensive hardware simulators how different are they to DCS?

 

4: If you were giving advice to someone who was an excellent DCS heli pilot but had never flown the real thing and wanted to learn, what would be the main things that would need learning or adjusting?

 

5: Related to previous question, could a good DCS heli pilot get in a real heli with no experience and take off and fly with no real issues?

 

6: What things would you like to see in sims of the future to make the experience more realistic?

 

I have more questions but that should do for now. Any responses appreciated, or just ignore me :-)

 

1. I have avoided helicopter sims on my desktop for years, mostly because they were not anywhere close to replicating the feel of flying a real helicopter and therefore not at all fun. Then I tried the Mi-8 and got hooked!

 

2. I would say that flying a real helicopter is just as hard as learning to fly the ones in DCS, but with the added pressure of the prospect of real bodily harm if you screw something up! I will say though, I found it extremely hard to get over the absence of any tactile feedback from the cockpit in DCS. Belsimtek has done an incredible job of recreating the "feel" of flying a large helicopter like the Hip but there are some things that are just a little bit over done IMHO.

 

3. The only "professional simulator" I have ever flown was the full motion simulator at Ft Rucker back in 1976. It did not have a visual system, just white paint on the windows. It was like flying around inside of a milk carton! I have sat in a few since then but only as a demo at a convention and I believe that the visuals in DCS are far superior to any of those that I saw.

 

4. One would need to have respect for the limitations and knowledge of the systems as well as a very large bank account! Over the 40 years of my career, I have always tried to discourage someone that expressed an interest in flying helicopters unless they insisted that this is what they wanted to do for a living because it is an extremely expensive whim!

 

5. Absolutely NOT!! Anyone that has never flown a real plane or helicopter in RL but is highly proficient in the desktop flight sims available today, would have a leg up on their contemporaries at a flight school that have no such experience as far as basic knowledge of terminology and principals of flight are concerned, but that edge will disappear very quickly, like as soon as the instructor gets the engine started for the first time! :joystick:

 

6. I would like to be able to move my head sideways and look down as I normally do when looking out of the bubble window of the helicopter I fly in RL. I don't know, maybe the Occulas Rift would be the next thing for me to enhance the realism. Short of the actual feeling of moving up and down, left and right and forwards and backwards, there doesn't seem to be much left to improve absent a real cockpit to sit in. :pilotfly:

[Ligeti]

Great response thanks Razor.

 

Which things do you think were overdone?

 

Also which helicopters have you flown in real life and do you think the various DCS heli modules are well differentiated in terms of the flight models?

 

No probs if you don't have time to reply, you've done enough already ;-)

[AG-51_Razor]

No worries Ligeti.

 

I feel like the Vortex Ring State (settling with power) modeling is way over done but after figuring out what instrument indications to watch out for, I can manage to avoid it most of the time.

 

I flew Hueys and Jet Rangers in the Army from '76 to '80 and then worked for Aris Helicopters in San Jose, CA for 8 years as a flight instructor in Hughes 300's, charter work in Jet Rangers and AS-350's, construction work and fighting fires in a Sikorsky S-58T. Then worked for Air One next door flying an AS-350 and S-58T fighting fires and doing construction work. I then got on with Erickson Air-Crane in 1992 and have been flying the S-64 Skycrane ever since. :joystick:

 

I have the UH-1H and Gazelle as well as the Mi-8 but have very little time in either of those others. The Hip is such a joy to fly that I don't really feel like flying the others so I don't really have an opinion about them. I found the Gazelle very Unrealistic right off the bat but I have heard that they have improved it's FM considerable since then.

[Ligeti]

No worries Ligeti.

 

I feel like the Vortex Ring State (settling with power) modeling is way over done but after figuring out what instrument indications to watch out for, I can manage to avoid it most of the time.

 

I flew Hueys and Jet Rangers in the Army from '76 to '80 and then worked for Aris Helicopters in San Jose, CA for 8 years as a flight instructor in Hughes 300's, charter work in Jet Rangers and AS-350's, construction work and fighting fires in a Sikorsky S-58T. Then worked for Air One next door flying an AS-350 and S-58T fighting fires and doing construction work. I then got on with Erickson Air-Crane in 1992 and have been flying the S-64 Skycrane ever since. :joystick:

 

I have the UH-1H and Gazelle as well as the Mi-8 but have very little time in either of those others. The Hip is such a joy to fly that I don't really feel like flying the others so I don't really have an opinion about them. I found the Gazelle very Unrealistic right off the bat but I have heard that they have improved it's FM considerable since then.

 

Interesting, thanks again Razor. I've not been using DCS for long and one of the good things about it is having RL pilots in the community, especially ones as experienced as you.

 

I guess you'd like to fly a real Mi-8/17? Probably not that many of them in the US though.

 

How long does it take to transition to a new helicopter? Do you need instruction at first? And is there a lot of studying to do in terms of learning the systems and mechanics?

 

I also wondered how much pilots know about the mechanical side of the helicopters they fly, is it required to be able to do simple maintenance or is that handled by mechanics on the ground?

[Weedwacker]

Good info thanks Outlawal.

 

If I get the money and time I may take some lessons, just for fun.

 

Interesting what you say about the R22, have you seen how those pilots on cattle farms in Australia throw the R22 around? I'm guessing that takes some serious practise and a lot of guts (or a slightly suicidal mindset.)

 

if your a kid still, join your rotc, get involved with a air force recruiter and just start hounding the shit out of them, flying is a rich boys game, the ones who make it are pedigreed into it for the most part. if you don't have family in the game already, you have to start early in the military and work on college. another avenue is aeronautical engineering...not cheap school either and very clean records are preferred.

[AG-51_Razor]

Ligeti,

 

Yes, I'd love to have the opportunity to fly a Mi-8 or 17! I have heard that they are extremely robust and reliable.

 

The time it takes to transition to another helicopter depends on a couple of things. How complex it is and how good the training is that's provided. In the past, when we did an awful lot of logging, a new pilot (new to the Crane) would take about a year to build up enough experience to be able to pass a type rating check ride and become a PIC. Back in those days we were flying 700 to 1000 hours a year. Now days, logging is a very small part of our business, we are lucky to get 200 hours a year and it take an average of 3 years before a pilot becomes a PIC. It also makes a big difference if a type rating is required for the machine. In the US, anything with a certificated takeoff and landing max gross weight of over 12,500 pounds requires the pilot to have a type rating. The pilot must take a check ride from an FAA inspector or a designated examiner to get this type rating and requires a fairly extensive knowledge of the systems, procedures and limitations of that particular machine.

 

A helicopter pilot doesn't need to be a mechanic but the more he knows about his machine, the better off he is.

[Ligeti]

Weedwacker: I'm not a kid, I'm nearly 40. I would never have made it in the armed forces as I don't like being bossed around (hence I'm self employed now.)

 

I was just talking about taking one lesson just to experience what being in a real helicopter is like. No intention of becoming a proper pilot, one reason I respect those who can do it.

 

Razor: That's more involved than I thought re learning new aircraft. Do individual pilots have to fund this training themselves? If so do the wages make it economically worthwhile? I know airline pilots are feeling a squeeze on their wages (in the US anyway) is this case with heli pilots too?

[NeilWillis]

Indeed, 11 hours is a very short lead up to going solo, but don't mistake solo for qualified.

 

I would suggest that as they have already been in training for some time on fixed wing aircraft before they even sit in a Gazelle, that 11 hours to carry out a oick up, hover, fly a simple circuit and land would be very intense, but it is obviously possible.

 

I also suspect that it is more of a confidence building exercise, and a way to compress training, making it intense enough to weed out the also-rans.

 

I suspect that after the solo flight things ramp up even more, to keep them on their toes, and ensure they get the right kind of mind set and skills in their pilots.

 

As for your insight Outlawal2, thanks, it's very useful to get a comparison between simulation and the real deal. I think the twitchy feel of the Gazelle caught the majority of us by surprise, but it is evidently pretty accurate.

 

I have a feeling my curves will be going back to 0/0 quite soon now I have started to get to grips with basic flying skills.