The best Attack Helicopter today

[Hummingbird]

What in your opinion is the best attack helicopter in the world today and why?

[agentdarnell]

The current gen choppers are so similar I don't think it can be decided.

[NeilWillis]

I dunno, let's start WW3 so we can try them out!

 

Frankly I think these debates fall into the category of super trumps, or comparing our favorite anatomical features. Very important on forums for 13 year olds, but do we really need to go down this road on the DCS World forum?

 

We have the Gazelle, UH-1H, Mi-8, and Ka50, so obviously the best attack helicopter in DCS World is the Ka50! What else is there to discuss right now?

[Enduro14]

It's all propaganda anyway like you said nothing will be known until the flag goes up.

[VTJS17_Fire]

The German Tiger isn't it in any case. :D

 

I saw the Czech Mi-24, U.S. AH-64D and the Tiger at the ILA and talked with the pilots. According to them, the Tiger is very agile, but slower than the Apache/ Longbow. It lacks the rotating gun of the Apache, which reduces flexibility and fast reactions a lot. The Longbow has it's radar, which increases chances of survival and targeting.

 

And the Apache (and Hind of course) proved in some conflicts in the last 30 years.

[Emu]

Airwolf /Thread.

[Emu]

It lacks the rotating gun of the Apache

Pretty sure it is turret mounted, but it isn't as accurate as the Apache system.

 

I would give it to the AH-64E. Longbow radar, most proven AGM, plus APKWS II, then you have future capabilities/potential on the horizon such as JAGM and maybe even Brimstone II fit. Flight profile also gives me much more confidence over Vikhr. It's APKWS II that really makes the difference right now though. So much more effective than standard rockets. Turns a spam salvo into 38 direct hits an separate vehicles.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Emu

[Sid6dot7]

Pretty sure it is turret mounted, but it isn't as accurate as the Apache system.

 

German Tigers aren't equipped with the gun turret, that is what Fire meant.

 

But regarding the "best attack helo": It's the one that fulfils it's intended and designed role the best, maybe a bit better.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Sid6dot7

[Buzzles]

But regarding the "best attack helo": It's the one that fulfils it's intended and designed role the best, maybe a bit better.

 

^^ This.

It's also a question of "best" in context of missions.

 

Support of ground troops in a COIN role, ala Apache's in Afganistan over the past few years?

More of a CAS role?

Or it a strike role which is what would happen if two modern armies clash?

[Emu]

German Tigers aren't equipped with the gun turret, that is what Fire meant.

 

But regarding the "best attack helo": It's the one that fulfils it's intended and designed role the best, maybe a bit better.

Ah okay, so the French ones have but the German ones don't.

[QuiGon]

Ah okay, so the French ones have but the German ones don't.

 

Indeed. They were orderd at the end of the Cold War as anti-tank choppers to replace the Bo-105 in that role, where a gun wasn't needed. But times have changed since then, but our government failed to act accordingly. :(

[Emu]

Indeed. They were orderd at the end of the Cold War as anti-tank choppers to replace the Bo-105 in that role, where a gun wasn't needed. But times have changed since then, but our government failed to act accordingly. :(

I heard something about fitting an RMK30, but to me that seems too heavy.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_RMK30

[Flim]

AH-64E:smilewink:

[Hummingbird]

I dunno, let's start WW3 so we can try them out!

 

Frankly I think these debates fall into the category of super trumps, or comparing our favorite anatomical features. Very important on forums for 13 year olds, but do we really need to go down this road on the DCS World forum?

 

We have the Gazelle, UH-1H, Mi-8, and Ka50, so obviously the best attack helicopter in DCS World is the Ka50! What else is there to discuss right now?

 

Well Neil as you have probably forgotten threads such as these stir discussions about technical stuff that we can all learn from. It isn't so much about naming what helicopter is best as it is about specifying capabilities & features and then comparing them. Personally I always find such discussions very interesting as long as personal bias is kept at a minimum.

 

For me personally I'm quite interested in seeing the opinion of people in regards to how some helis stack up to each other, like for example the AH-64E & Mi-28N which are supposed to fill the same role and indeed seem quite similar in many ways but I'm sure there are important differences.

[Hummingbird]

Pretty sure it is turret mounted, but it isn't as accurate as the Apache system.

 

Seems to be the same accuracy wise based on the few videos I've seen, but the difference is that the Apache carries a lot more ammunition.

 

I would give it to the AH-64E. Longbow radar, most proven AGM, plus APKWS II, then you have future capabilities/potential on the horizon such as JAGM and maybe even Brimstone II fit. Flight profile also gives me much more confidence over Vikhr. It's APKWS II that really makes the difference right now though. So much more effective than standard rockets. Turns a spam salvo into 38 direct hits an separate vehicles.

 

But can't the Ka-52 & Mi-28N achieve virtually the same?

 

The vikhr missile's more flat trajectory could be an advantage in certain circumstances, e.g. if you need to lob a missile through an opening etc. The Ka-50/52 also supposedly has an advantage in the accuracy of its cannon due to how its mounted on a semi flexible mount at the center of the airframe longitudinally. The disadvantage of course is that unlike the Apache & Mi-28N it can't open fire whilst circling the target.

 

PS: I'm leaning towards the AH-64E myself overall, but atm the Ka-52 seems like it might be better in certain circumstances.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Hummingbird

[QuiGon]

I heard something about fitting an RMK30, but to me that seems too heavy.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_RMK30

 

The problem isn't the weight. The problem is, that there is no space left for a gun, because instead of a gun the german Tiger has a special FLIR system that is controlled by the pilots helmet mounted cueing system.

[Emu]

Seems to be the same accuracy wise based on the few videos I've seen, but the difference is that the Apache carries a lot more ammunition.

Have you got a link?

[Emu]

Seems to be the same accuracy wise based on the few videos I've seen, but the difference is that the Apache carries a lot more ammunition.

 

 

 

But can't the Ka-52 & Mi-28N achieve virtually the same?

 

The vikhr missile's more flat trajectory could be an advantage in certain circumstances, e.g. if you need to lob a missile through an opening etc. The Ka-50/52 also supposedly has an advantage in the accuracy of its cannon due to how its mounted on a semi flexible mount at the center of the airframe longitudinally. The disadvantage of course is that unlike the Apache & Mi-28N it can't open fire whilst circling the target.

 

PS: I'm leaning towards the AH-64E myself overall, but atm the Ka-52 seems like it might be better in certain circumstances.

It might be if the Vikhr actually flew straight rather than in spirals. It's seriously bad if you're aiming it down a slope on a hill/mountain at a vehicle on that slope.

 

The gun is probably better for accuracy on the Ka-50/52 but it carries way less ammo and APKWS II does the same job from 5km away with sub-metric accuracy.

 

And of course potential for 4 AAMs.

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Emu

[Hummingbird]

Have you got a link?

 

Yeah, these are the videos I was thinking about:

 

As the first video illustrates the Tiger seems esp. good at hitting moving targets with its gun.

 

In the 2nd video they start firing already at 2 km, and then when reaching the normal 1300-1500 m the spread starts to tighten up a lot.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Hummingbird

[Bushmanni]

Russian SACLOS ATGMs they use on choppers are good only against enemy that can't shoot back. Engaging modern MBTs, IFVs let alone SAMs or AAA isn't going to be fun with Vikhr or Ataka. While their guidance is more reliable than laser spot seeker or mm-wave radar in Hellfire it doesn't help if you are left as sitting duck while the missile is in flight. You need to have LOS on target and you can't maneuver in order to ensure hit. With Hellfire you can at least maneuver after firing if self designating but better method is to use separate shooter and designator so shooter can stay safe. Designator can also turn the laser on only when the missile is close enough to see it so target gets minimal warning before getting hit. LOAL launch isn't 100% reliable but you can always try again which might not be case using SACLOS missiles.

 

I wouldn't rate any SACLOS missile limited choppers as credible assets against enemy that has proper anti-aircraft defenses. You can try in DCS how easy it is to plink few human controlled MBTs with Vikhrs when the tank crews don't just sit in the open waiting for you to massacre them. If you give them also few anti-air assets like Strelas (let alone Tunguskas) you are pretty much guaranteed to encounter some very nasty surprises and hairy situations when you try to get in firing position on those units. It's also not that hard to shoot the attacking chopper down with the tank main cannon if it keeps flying straight for too long. Hovering chopper is dead meat if in range of MBT cannon. And this in DCS which stacks the deck in favor of the attack choppers by not modeling self-defense smoke systems, proper fire control and stabilization and anti-air shells for tank main guns and terrain that would provide realistic opportunities for camouflage and cover. Unless tanks and other vehicles are moving or in the open you have hard time spotting them before it's too late. Longbow radar helps but it has it's flaws and there's tech that can camouflage stationary vehicles also against radars.

[WinterH]

While it's not my favorite, objectively I'll probably have to say AH-64E with all the cutting edge sensors and self defence systems. Tiger in it's various versions are great too, but it seems you have to choose between great optics in German version and having an actual gun in French version. T-129 version of A-129, as locally built by Turkey has some pretty good looking systems and weaponry options, but is barely entering service and doesn't have proven pedigree of other helos.

 

AH-1Z would be an honorable mention, it has pretty modern optics and cockpit, self defence suite, and it seem to be able to carry longbow radar if needed in a wing pylon. If true, I guess this means it may probably carry radar hellfires too. But it doesn't carry as many AT missiles as Apache or Ka-52, or Mi-28. APKWS probably mitigates it a bit though. Also which other helo has Sidewinders, for whatever good :).

 

Latest versions of Ka-52, Mi-28N and even Mi-35M to a degree, look pretty great on paper. All weather capability, modern optics, pretty big payload, self defence suites and in case of Mi-28N and Ka-52, even radars I guess. But Mi-28 had quite a few crashes, and seeming to suffer from some lingering issues. At least it had export success though, Ka-52 has been used only by Russia until recently, I think it only has found a recent export buyer, don't exactly recall which country though. Also Bushmanni has a point about fire and forget missiles. Russian missiles kind of make up for it a little bit by being faster than Western ones but, that hardly catches up with fire and forget ability in some environments. Also they don't seem to have got guidance kits for rockets which would imrpove S-8 and S-13 quite a bit. Even though I like Russian attack helos a lot for some reason, it seems they fit usual theme of Russian military equipment : has all the potential, but can't quite realize that potential and lags behind. That said, I would still rate Ka-52 and Mi-28 highly. As advantageous as they are, fire and forget AT missiles aren't that common yet are they? In any case, common or not, most newer attack helos have some form of fire and forget missile available as an option, and these do not. Still, you have to give credit where due, Russian attack helos can have really heavy payload.

 

In any case, with Apache being the best, most top of the line attack helos themselves rate somewhat close in my opinion. But, when you factor in fire and forget ability, Russian ones fall behind the curve.

 

I'd still prefer Mi-28, Mi-24 of all variants and Ka-52 to fly in DCS though :P. Also the Cobra, both F and W if possible. Honestly, I'd get any and every attack helo if I can, but these are the ones I'd especially prefer to have in DCS.

 

Does anyone know much about Chinese ones? One of them doesn't seem to have a cannon and seem more of a cheap alternative, but the bigger one seem to have most bells and whistles.

[Bushmanni]

AH-1Z avionics are slightly better than AH-64D BlockII (otherwise similar but Cobra has better helmet sight). AH-1Z can carry the same amount of weapons payload as Apache but I don't know if it can have full fuel load at that payload.

 

Radar Hellfire doesn't need radar to use it as you can also fire it at TADS designated targets. It gets the target coordinates and velocity vector from the chopper at launch and then flies to the coordinates using inertial navigation. When the missile is close enough it will switch on its radar and find the target that matches current calculated target coordinates the best. It can also be used against flying targets like Helicopters. It's kind of like the ATGM version of AMRAAM.

[VTJS17_Fire]

^^ This.

It's also a question of "best" in context of missions.

There are only a few for native attack helicopters: CAS, anti-tank and striking important targets - if possible - like in ODS. A helicopter would not be used as "strike" asset to "bomb" something, if you meant that. That worked for the russians in Afgahnistan in the 1980s, but not against a regular army.

[Dieter]

The German Tiger isn't it in any case. :D

 

I saw the Czech Mi-24, U.S. AH-64D and the Tiger at the ILA and talked with the pilots. According to them, the Tiger is very agile, but slower than the Apache/ Longbow. It lacks the rotating gun of the Apache, which reduces flexibility and fast reactions a lot. The Longbow has it's radar, which increases chances of survival and targeting.

 

And the Apache (and Hind of course) proved in some conflicts in the last 30 years.

 

 

Hi fire

I see your post just now and i wanted to tell you that i am not totally agree with you. The tiger heli is not only german: it is a German/french helicopter :lol:

[Emu]

 

As the first video illustrates the Tiger seems esp. good at hitting moving targets with its gun.

 

In the 2nd video they start firing already at 2 km, and then when reaching the normal 1300-1500 m the spread starts to tighten up a lot.

Pretty accurate. I guess a lot depends on range though. Based on your second video firing at 1200m (2:30) vs this first video, I would say the AH-64 has the edge though.