F15C with 14G overload?

[JunMcKill]

All day long being about 0.01s... Youtube isn't precisefull enough to time it propery. Also, in combat this has zero practical application : GG you pulled during what? 2sec. of hard Gs and are now stalled out for the fight to come.

Besides, anyone who brings 3 bags out of blue flag should just loose their wings at all time lol.

 

It's not the practical application, and this is not what I am complaining, it 's the fact that can pull 14.5G with all this weight in the wings, every single bolt should hold about 30,000 pounds! in this case, the ones in the left wing a positive Gs, and the right wing negatives! Even if it is for 0.1 second!

[*Rage*]

All day long being about 0.01s... Youtube isn't precisefull enough to time it propery. Also, in combat this has zero practical application : GG you pulled during what? 2sec. of hard Gs and are now stalled out for the fight to come.

Besides, anyone who brings 3 bags out of blue flag should just loose their wings at all time lol.

 

The application is in BVR and in the merge.

[GGTharos]

They can turn 180 without blacking out and beat your flanker to it?

[Ktulu2]

BVR slow = BVR dead

In the merge, I guess it could be usefull for one-cercle, but even there, you're just better off at speeds where you'll turn faster without over-G where 14G is not possible.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think it should be fixed at some point, but it is not by any means a game-breaking bug unlike every change with 1.5.4.

[strikeeagle]

Had a level 3 over-g one day and had to replace a upper engine mount because it had cracked. Wouldn't have taken much more before the motor "flopped" in the bay.

 

Upper act torque boxes on the verts were notorious for cracking around the RWR or light fairing. There are quite a few "bent" air frames out there.

[GGTharos]

I'm not disputing that fact, I'm saying they're flying.

[*Rage*]

The application is obvious to anyone engaged in online competitive MP (see recent events). I wont go into any explanations of the BVR/WVR tactics here.

 

Ever since the 27 and 15 got there PFMs the fidelity gap has been widening between the two. See post 19.

[Sweep]

The application is obvious to anyone engaged in online competitive MP (see recent events). I wont go into any explanations of the BVR/WVR tactics here.

 

Ever since the 27 and 15 got there PFMs the fidelity gap has been widening between the two. See post 19.

 

:doh:

[pr1malr8ge]

The application is obvious to anyone engaged in online competitive MP (see recent events). I wont go into any explanations of the BVR/WVR tactics here.

 

Ever since the 27 and 15 got there PFMs the fidelity gap has been widening between the two. See post 19.

 

 

So, the gap has widen since the f15 can manage to hit 14G with out the wings falling off since the pfm update? Yet the su27 was able to hit 40g until ED resolved that issue which was ohh in the last what 4months! So Please explain to me how there is a widened fidelity gap when 1 plane[su27] could achieve impossible maneuvers for well over a year and the other[f15] is still in the realm of possibility?

 

From my point of view the Fidelity gap has narrowed to closer proximity considering the unrealistic hydro failures implemented in the f15 would overly negate the slightly high G capabilities of the current model. One could argue that the "fidelity" is still highly in favor of the su27 over the f15 due to missing weapons/radar modes, the absurd hydro failure on the f15, and the su27s IFF exploit.

[JunMcKill]

So, the gap has widen since the f15 can manage to hit 14G with out the wings falling off since the pfm update? Yet the su27 was able to hit 40g until ED resolved that issue which was ohh in the last what 4months! So Please explain to me how there is a widened fidelity gap when 1 plane[su27] could achieve impossible maneuvers for well over a year and the other[f15] is still in the realm of possibility?

 

From my point of view the Fidelity gap has narrowed to closer proximity considering the unrealistic hydro failures implemented in the f15 would overly negate the slightly high G capabilities of the current model. One could argue that the "fidelity" is still highly in favor of the su27 over the f15 due to missing weapons/radar modes, the absurd hydro failure on the f15, and the su27s IFF exploit.

 

What is the SU-27 IFF exploit?

[Stuge]

What is the SU-27 IFF exploit?

 

You can IFF IRST-locked targets without spiking their RWR.

 

This "feature" has puzzled me ever since it appeared in the game, many years ago.

 

It is, of course, an invaluable companion for the stealth-oriented Flanker Ninjas like myself :)

[Esac_mirmidon]

From the real Su-27SK Manual:

 

" When the EOS is the primary sensor (Weapon Control Panel selector on Mode OLS), the target angular position is transmited from the EOS to the radar. The radar works in this situation on KBO mode ( Kвази Oбзора ) and the EOS is feed with target information about distance. In the signals panel the indications ЗАХВ ОЛС is lighted and in the HUD the ИЗЛ indication is showed"

 

NOTE:

 

The KBO mode is a subsidiary radar mode that works with very short radar pulses enough to determine target distance in a cooperative mode with the EOS as primary sensor.

 

" At less than 15 Km the radar change from KBO mode to PHП and the EOS is feed with target distance information continuosly."

 

So:

 

I don´t know if this KBO radar mode using very short and discontinuous radar impulses to feed the EOS with target distance information is enough to make a RWR to lit and show radar activity but it´s worth to mention in this discussion.

[SinusoidDelta]

There's data out there it was exceeded regularly in actual use, never mind testing.

 

Correct, I misspoke there. The data came from signal data recorders installed into 1 out of 5 F-15's to determine service life. That same data was used in developing the OWS. FWIW the image below is from 105 flight hours of ONE F-15.

[OldE24]

You can IFF IRST-locked targets without spiking their RWR.

 

This "feature" has puzzled me ever since it appeared in the game, many years ago.

 

It is, of course, an invaluable companion for the stealth-oriented Flanker Ninjas like myself :)

 

THIS. as you have to toggle the radar to IFF it's BS there is no warning on the receiving end.

 

on the other hand i highly doubt a F-15 with wing tanks should be able to do the snap turn with out the bags falling off or other structural issues. clean with no tanks is another story.

[FLANKERATOR]

It's quite simple, one aircraft has G force induced structural damage implemented while the other does not.

I don't think it needs a debate. 40 or 14G, they're both unrealistic figures. The first has been addressed, the second hasn't.

 

Lets be honest, flying a Flanker is overall many times more challenging than flying the F-15. The Eagles flight model is much more forgiving, has better weapons, better radar, better avionics. This is not a rant, this is a fact.

[SinusoidDelta]

THIS. as you have to toggle the radar to IFF it's BS there is no warning on the receiving end.

 

on the other hand i highly doubt a F-15 with wing tanks should be able to do the snap turn with out the bags falling off or other structural issues.

 

I agree. Obviously it depends on the gross weight of the aircraft. In one of the threads droning endlessly about this subject I linked a very detailed and tragic description of an F-15A at Elmendorf that did infact violently rip its wings off. The pilot performed an abrupt pull up after a low, high speed pass just after take off. The jet was heavy, filled with fuel, wing tank and a full missile load out. Due to the complete destruction of the jet, and the wreckage landing in a river, no details were recovered regarding the speed or load factor seen in the pull up.

 

The bottom line is this. The F-15 isn't indestructible. It isn't sculpted out of unobtanium. It is, however, capable of being pushed deep into overload territory. How far? That's the million dollar question. This sounds painfully obvious but it needs to be said; the F-15 is not the Su-27. They do not share the same mechanics of flight. The F-15 does not have the nose authority of the Su-27. Any sort of damage model is not going to be predicted and then implemented over night. Does the current lack of damage model afford eagle drivers an advantage? IMO not in any appreciable way. Once you pull 14G you're post stall maneuvering with near zero nose authority. Anyone doing this regularly, which is the argument here, will be killed many times.

 

Even if you evade the first missile in this manner, you just solved the next missile's problem.

[Ktulu2]

Does the current lack of damage model afford eagle drivers an advantage? IMO not in any appreciable way. Once you pull 14G you're post stall maneuvering with near zero nose authority. Anyone doing this regularly, which is the argument here, will be killed many times.

 

Even if you evade the first missile in this manner, you just solved the next missile's problem.

 

THIS

Tried to explain it multiple times...

[JunMcKill]

You can IFF IRST-locked targets without spiking their RWR.

 

This "feature" has puzzled me ever since it appeared in the game, many years ago.

 

It is, of course, an invaluable companion for the stealth-oriented Flanker Ninjas like myself :)

 

Ahhh yeah, I already posted about the silent IRST IFF in another post previously, and remember that someone of ED told me that is a bug, and I told them that they should think in a key to activate IFF in this case, even if you have the radar OFF

Edited July 19, 2016 by JunMcKill

[strikeeagle]

I'm not disputing that fact, I'm saying they're flying.

 

I see you what you're driving at. :smartass:

[FLANKERATOR]

Guys, wings ripping off when heavy loaded will also kill you or at least force you to bail out. Being killed by the enemy is not the only way to lose in DCS. Because what I see is people arguing that overloading the F-15 wouldn't give any significant kinematic or maneuvering advantage anyway.

 

The actual point is that in an Su-27 you can break your airframe if you stress it past a certain Red line, which is completely absent in the F-15 currently.

 

In a nutshell: all flying objects are subject to the same laws of physics so that heavy F-15 should auto destruct when pulling 14G or whatever amount deemed accurate by the devs, rather than getting away with it.

[GGTharos]

IN a nutshell: It's not some sort of urgent issue.

 

In fact you shouldn't even really be able to pull 14g AFAIK, the highest known/recorded is 12.5 stick-in-the-gut pull.

[Vitormouraa]

stick-in-the-gut pull.

 

You mean, deflection?

[Ktulu2]

You put the stick in your guts : Full stick towards you pulling like a madman.

[FLANKERATOR]

IN a nutshell: It's not some sort of urgent issue.

 

In fact you shouldn't even really be able to pull 14g AFAIK, the highest known/recorded is 12.5 stick-in-the-gut pull.

 

It's up to the devs to decide about the urgency of this, we can only point out and chit chat.

 

What I personally see is one pilot focusing 100% on fighting a bandit that is splitting focus between fighting own machine and fighting back.

[SinusoidDelta]

Guys, wings ripping off when heavy loaded will also kill you or at least force you to bail out. Being killed by the enemy is not the only way to lose in DCS. Because what I see is people arguing that overloading the F-15 wouldn't give any significant kinematic or maneuvering advantage anyway.

 

The actual point is that in an Su-27 you can break your airframe if you stress it past a certain Red line, which is completely absent in the F-15 currently.

 

In a nutshell: all flying objects are subject to the same laws of physics so that heavy F-15 should auto destruct when pulling 14G or whatever amount deemed accurate by the devs, rather than getting away with it.

 

I'd like to see that one day too. Players would quickly stop taking 3 bags and a missile on every hardpoint. In the mean time these people make great targets. The F-15 FM hits a brick wall pulling 14G and heavy.

 

Does anyone know if tacview records G correctly? The OP's track didn't get over 12G according to tacview. 10+ G sustained for ~1.7 seconds. What gives?:noexpression: