Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

[microvax]

GCI spotted you then I tracked you for a few Km.

 

Ah kay thakns for the info, I guess then its a myth that EWR doesnt spot you if you are 20m or lower and slower then 180kph, allways doubted it but well now I know it.

So you have to stay in the radar shade all the time, that is practically close to impossibel from the north on beslan. I hate that.

 

On practically every other Airfield or FARP or city you can get within 5km while staying in radar shade if you do a flightplan follow that and stay below 10m. Beslan is pretty much only possible from the west but there were KA50s and SA6 sites. :D didnt attack them for a reason. :D

 

But well as long as GCI did spot me and it wasnt the eyes or sensors of anything flying around I am happy. According to the ka50 callsI got your helis were operating south of beslan, so nobody expected sneaky microvax from the north. )))

 

Yeah, the thing is if you are really flying below 10m, trying to stay below that at least, with non working trim, non working altitude, which is only barometric btw, hold, and you are trying to find as much stuff as possible to put between you and the Beslan radars you dont get much time to scan for threats, other then the front 45degrees lets say. but tbh if you are spoted and or locked by a KA50 beyond 1km you are toast in a gazelle anyway.

Noticed the su27 only until i saw the s8 impacts. ^^

 

But as said I had my fun and 2,8km within 5km range for no friendly units within 50 miles is acceptable by my standards. If the units spot stuff in the flight params I was strafing for and to my knowledge operating in, its really just LOS which can save you.

 

I really wished the gazelle had the range of its actual sensors. But I guess the spot through walls under the horizon with all equipment powered down is just no good way of doing it for 15km range.

Polychop actually tried to build a function into it which would give info about if something is in sight or not, but apparently it was terrible performance wise and wasnt possible to put into multiplayer. *sigh*. 5km is simply a pretty small area with pretty short interception ranges for machines which are all 70-120 kph faster then you anyway. :D Would enjoy peeking over ridges at 15km then relocating way more.

 

 

Well this is how it is. Really good fun flying around with actually having to think about where the enemy is. [in helis]

 

 

And next time I am probably going straight line to the target as soon as I get painted by radar from there. :D Did try to get behind the next city to the north of beslan.

Mistakes were made. TM.

 

 

EDIT: Yeah, checked in the recording you were in my view for like 0,8 seconds. Then I turned towards the su27 locking me, then the first shots started hitting me. Then I pulled straight for beslan and kinda lost my tailrotor if I am not mistaken. :DD

Edited August 4, 2016 by microvax

[microvax]

Hello, what is repaired in the airbase?

Maybe it has not the fuel bunkers etc?

 

Greg

 

It did have them before 10 minute save warning. If you want I can provide track file from 15 min before the restart.

 

:)

 

Video recording, Track and Tacview file cann al be handed in which show more then bunkers 17min before restart.

 

After restart beslan was closed, still blue, but closed.

Edited August 4, 2016 by microvax

[roccoo]

It did have them before 10 minute save warning. If you want I can provide track file from 15 min before the restart.

 

:)

 

Video recording, Track and Tacview file cann al be handed in which show more then bunkers 17min before restart.

 

After restart beslan was closed, still blue, but closed.

 

Known issue since round 6. Same for both sides. Sometimes happens on 40% also. All GCI of blue and red know that 20% before restart = closed after.

Edited August 4, 2016 by roccoo

[gregzagk]

And Blue can't win already, even with those numbers? This is by far the most irritating round of BlueFlag I have ever played. I think BS needs a script to limit the number of active pilots each side can have at a time. Blue needs to pull their heads out and win already...

 

Reaper6(Hella salty today)

 

Well clearly as mentioned before, the numbers of pilots are not the only thing that can lead to the final victory. We read again many posts about balancing and we don't know where they are based on.

 

There are tons of stuff that lead to balance and I am not clearly sure anyone can so easily figure it out in one post. Maybe you guys do from previous experience in organising events.

But by saying "ok it's 24 vs 24, now it's balanced" you make the biggest mistake of all time.

 

In this particular round for example we have more Blue side pilots than Reds. Usually they are 5-10 more pilots. Reds have their times also but they are much less of course.

 

At the same time we use a NATO vs RUSSIA concept. That leads pilots of the new modules like Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, F-5E to the Blue side. That automatically means that these pilots are not so experienced in these modules as they are new. That decreases the efficiency of the side that balances with the experience gained to the A-10C module & F-15C.

 

At the other hand you have SU-25Ts, KA-50s, MiG-21, SU-27, MiG-29S in which there are pilots that can literally wipe out airbases by their own since they fly them many years. Check the map at various times to see if this is true. That is a simple small example of things that can balance a campaign.

 

Checked also the logs and the times that RED side had 2-4 pilots instead of many blue are in total ~6 hours in 8 days. It's pretty much bad luck if you only fly then.

 

 

This is the 8th day of the campaign. This picture shows that things were a bit more balanced than you are talking about. Both sides managed to take back what they lost and pushing again. Eventually one side will lose at the end. But the reason won't be for sure only the player numbers.

 

 

Greg

[microvax]

Known issue since round 6. Same for both sides. Sometimes happens on 40% also.

 

Yep I know, said last page already talking about it since round 6 but admins tended not to believe me it seems. :D And also some redfor people rushed to the keyboards to say the loss of blue assets was completely legit.

So I simply accepted it. :D

 

Caesar had an easier stand then me here sometimes. xD

 

 

would give greag rep for his post but cant it says I have to give it to someone else first so you get it rocco for beeing an honest communist ! :D ;P

Edited August 4, 2016 by microvax

[roccoo]

Yep I know, said last page already talking about it since round 6 but admins tended not to believe me it seems. :D And also some redfor people rushed to the keyboards to say the loss of blue assets was completely legit.

So I simply accepted it. :D

 

Caesar had an easier stand then me here sometimes. xD

 

 

would give greag rep for his post but cant it says I have to give it to someone else first so you get it rocco for beeing an honest communist ! :D ;P

 

Oh thank you :lol:

Edited August 4, 2016 by roccoo

[microvax]

Oh thank you :lol:

P.s. Sometimes think about poor communist reds conquering stuff in 2 blue vs 1 red situation as you're talking about a base conquered with 3 to 1 advantage. :(

 

Honestly you do not want to play when its 3:1 on blue.

 

The clusterF is just to much. Beeing with 10 coordinatable people against 20-30 random arse failing people is way more enjoyable then the other way around.

[roccoo]

Honestly you do not want to play when its 3:1 on blue.

 

The clusterF is just to much. Beeing with 10 coordinatable people against 20-30 random arse failing people is way more enjoyable then the other way around.

 

Sorry, I edited the message as it's not useful to talk about numbers. I'm just kind of nostalgic cause I don't have a pc now and can't help reds atm :cry_2:

:thumbup:

[Hedhunta]

Honestly you do not want to play when its 3:1 on blue.

 

The clusterF is just to much. Beeing with 10 coordinatable people against 20-30 random arse failing people is way more enjoyable then the other way around.

 

Absolutely agree. I sometimes play late at night when theres only 5-10 blues vs 5-10 reds and since its not a cluster**** of noobs that aren't on comms or are just playing airquake its sooooo much better. I'd switch to red in a heartbeat if they had the mirage, but thats my favorite aircraft right now(I fly huey occasionally out of neccesity for missions) and even though its pretty crippled right now that's what I want to fly most of the time and its not on red.

[Reaper6]

Ah kay thakns for the info, I guess then its a myth that EWR doesnt spot you if you are 20m or lower and slower then 180kph, allways doubted it but well now I know it.

So you have to stay in the radar shade all the time, that is practically close to impossibel from the north on beslan. I hate that.

 

On practically every other Airfield or FARP or city you can get within 5km while staying in radar shade if you do a flightplan follow that and stay below 10m. Beslan is pretty much only possible from the west but there were KA50s and SA6 sites. :D didnt attack them for a reason. :D

 

But well as long as GCI did spot me and it wasnt the eyes or sensors of anything flying around I am happy. According to the ka50 callsI got your helis were operating south of beslan, so nobody expected sneaky microvax from the north. )))

 

Yeah, the thing is if you are really flying below 10m, trying to stay below that at least, with non working trim, non working altitude, which is only barometric btw, hold, and you are trying to find as much stuff as possible to put between you and the Beslan radars you dont get much time to scan for threats, other then the front 45degrees lets say. but tbh if you are spoted and or locked by a KA50 beyond 1km you are toast in a gazelle anyway.

Noticed the su27 only until i saw the s8 impacts. ^^

 

But as said I had my fun and 2,8km within 5km range for no friendly units within 50 miles is acceptable by my standards. If the units spot stuff in the flight params I was strafing for and to my knowledge operating in, its really just LOS which can save you.

 

I really wished the gazelle had the range of its actual sensors. But I guess the spot through walls under the horizon with all equipment powered down is just no good way of doing it for 15km range.

Polychop actually tried to build a function into it which would give info about if something is in sight or not, but apparently it was terrible performance wise and wasnt possible to put into multiplayer. *sigh*. 5km is simply a pretty small area with pretty short interception ranges for machines which are all 70-120 kph faster then you anyway. :D Would enjoy peeking over ridges at 15km then relocating way more.

 

 

Well this is how it is. Really good fun flying around with actually having to think about where the enemy is. [in helis]

 

 

And next time I am probably going straight line to the target as soon as I get painted by radar from there. :D Did try to get behind the next city to the north of beslan.

Mistakes were made. TM.

 

 

EDIT: Yeah, checked in the recording you were in my view for like 0,8 seconds. Then I turned towards the su27 locking me, then the first shots started hitting me. Then I pulled straight for beslan and kinda lost my tailrotor if I am not mistaken. :DD

 

To my knowledge if ANYTHING spots you, you are seen by GCI. So if a aircraft had caught a glimpse of you on radar GCI would see you. I think when I locked onto you GCI was able to see you as well. I'm not going to throw out my secrets to masking, but after the blueflag is over I would be happy to tell you what I do.

 

Reaper6

[Reaper6]

Well clearly as mentioned before, the numbers of pilots are not the only thing that can lead to the final victory. We read again many posts about balancing and we don't know where they are based on.

 

There are tons of stuff that lead to balance and I am not clearly sure anyone can so easily figure it out in one post. Maybe you guys do from previous experience in organising events.

But by saying "ok it's 24 vs 24, now it's balanced" you make the biggest mistake of all time.

 

In this particular round for example we have more Blue side pilots than Reds. Usually they are 5-10 more pilots. Reds have their times also but they are much less of course.

 

At the same time we use a NATO vs RUSSIA concept. That leads pilots of the new modules like Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, F-5E to the Blue side. That automatically means that these pilots are not so experienced in these modules as they are new. That decreases the efficiency of the side that balances with the experience gained to the A-10C module & F-15C.

 

At the other hand you have SU-25Ts, KA-50s, MiG-21, SU-27, MiG-29S in which there are pilots that can literally wipe out airbases by their own since they fly them many years. Check the map at various times to see if this is true. That is a simple small example of things that can balance a campaign.

 

Checked also the logs and the times that RED side had 2-4 pilots instead of many blue are in total ~6 hours in 8 days. It's pretty much bad luck if you only fly then.

 

 

This is the 8th day of the campaign. This picture shows that things were a bit more balanced than you are talking about. Both sides managed to take back what they lost and pushing again. Eventually one side will lose at the end. But the reason won't be for sure only the player numbers.

 

 

 

Greg

 

I think you guys have done a great job, just gets frustrating sometimes I suppose to see their numbers.

 

Reaper6

[microvax]

To my knowledge if ANYTHING spots you, you are seen by GCI. So if a aircraft had caught a glimpse of you on radar GCI would see you. I think when I locked onto you GCI was able to see you as well. I'm not going to throw out my secrets to masking, but after the blueflag is over I would be happy to tell you what I do.

 

Reaper6

 

For the f15 radar you only see stuff as gci if they STT something, I dont even think TWS is enough.

 

For groundunits its really just weird what they spot and what they dont spot. In general spotting in DCS is a lil bit weird. imho. Stuff like Tank spots you insta if you pop over cover, like instantly at 4km. And Im like, hey mate you are a t55 not a freakin Tunguska. :D

But you can get within non firing zone of a SA13 if you fly low enouhg, it actually engages with a 7.62 or 12,something which is hilarious. :D

 

Happy to have a conversation about how to hide your helicopter after blueflag since we both like to be undetected and stuff. :D

[StandingCow]

BS team, just a curiosity question... is it possible to have the amount of AI on the enemy team scale to compensate somewhat for the ratio difference? So if one team is outnumbered they would get more AI aircraft to help defend?

 

Not that I think it's a problem, just something I was wondering about.

[Enduro14]

For the Heli guys I recommend thinking and acting like a sniper. I'll keep this short but Stalks Google heck out of it.

 

Key things to remember and translate into the heli world

 

Tree stacks, Standoff, and obsolutely never Parallel the Objective, sun position and shadowing.

 

Crom

[gregzagk]

BS team, just a curiosity question... is it possible to have the amount of AI on the enemy team scale to compensate somewhat for the ratio difference? So if one team is outnumbered they would get more AI aircraft to help defend?

 

Not that I think it's a problem, just something I was wondering about.

 

Yes it has done in the past with a script of Xcom's (not during Blue Flag though).

 

But until now it doesn't seem as a priority as the availability of aircraft and pilots is a major part of a dynamic war. Noone ever waited for the enemy to get its numbers before attacking. If it was unplayable or a side won within hours we would change that.

 

Currently it seems like Blue side needs to improve effectiveness when they are more in numbers. It's not easy though as when you have more people in your side with different experience you may find it hard to coordinate (radio, target selection, ATO, fuel consumption etc).

 

Let's see how both sides will do from now on, especially through the weekend which has different number of participation.

 

Greg

[zaelu]

Sometimes in battle you are overwhelmed. Some chose to stay safe in those times some accept the challenge (I'm not talking about myself... I''m struggling to find time to play).

 

But, if the rounds until now were won in a balance kind of way... maybe more by red... maybe we should play along and have a bit of trust in devs.

 

I play always red by the way and this 8th rounds is the most I like. SRS plus NATO vs Warsaw pact is very nice.

 

 

I would like to have ability to construct or "research"... "Fortresses" that would hold ground in tme of heavy unbalance giving something to do to a huge enemy team and time to regroup to a small defending team for a while.

 

That means 2 PAKs, one on each side to have the ability to become hard to crack nuts by having build inside them big Long Range SAM batteries. I mean S300 and Patriot like systems with medium and short range systems around them. The PAKs should be not in the center and exact location secret during the building. These batteries should be constructed while the sector is not under attack and should take multiple resources to build and a coordinated effort from the team. It should take multiple server restarts also so people would commit to them. Also the team could opt out of building such thing for a... blitzkrieg. Example: First you need to build 7 short range SAMs in a circle... the you can build 3 Medium inside that circle... then start accumulating resources to build the large long range SAM.

 

Another thing, tech trees. Ability to "research" tech like things. Say... AIM120 or R77. Or planes... say a Carrier (movable by each team strategic command) with AI interceptors... etc.

Edited August 5, 2016 by zaelu

[StandingCow]

Yes it has done in the past with a script of Xcom's (not during Blue Flag though).

 

But until now it doesn't seem as a priority as the availability of aircraft and pilots is a major part of a dynamic war. Noone ever waited for the enemy to get its numbers before attacking. If it was unplayable or a side won within hours we would change that.

 

Currently it seems like Blue side needs to improve effectiveness when they are more in numbers. It's not easy though as when you have more people in your side with different experience you may find it hard to coordinate (radio, target selection, ATO, fuel consumption etc).

 

Let's see how both sides will do from now on, especially through the weekend which has different number of participation.

 

Greg

 

Cool, I agree with you, was just wondering if it was possible, I don't know anything about scripting. :music_whistling:

 

Yea, red seems to do a LOT more with less people.

[TheSnark]

Haven't played throughout the week but REDFOR is doing a damn fine job this campaign. Then again, the numbers were much the same I played the first time and I was on Red. we won in the end even though we got pushed back into PAK 1 and 2, so really anything is possible.

[microvax]

Currently it seems like Blue side needs to improve effectiveness when they are more in numbers. It's not easy though as when you have more people in your side with different experience you may find it hard to coordinate (radio, target selection, ATO, fuel consumption etc).

 

Let's see how both sides will do from now on, especially through the weekend which has different number of participation.

 

Greg

 

... yeah... experience of outnumbering red 2:1 yesterday.

 

A mirage which first shoots down our A10c striking a farp, which was at least not terrible, tbh for a pilot not speaking in TS he was pretty good spotting a ka50 around the farp etc..

After that shooting our only f15 CAP in the west, so he had to go defensive while merged with ai mig29. On just telling him to use if he is like there were no friendlies.

 

Someone who volunteered to do GCI after I was simply to freakin tired to take the frustration of not beeing able to do anything. Just freakin left without saying anything, literally 3 min after he said he is going to do it.

 

Gazelles that are freakin hovering more then 50m above the ground for no good reason.

 

And mainly just a terrible lack of a constant of CAP that can do shit.

We never have that constant of at least some people in fighters online which can do shit. And its simply annoying as hell.

 

 

I dont say all theese people are terrible pilots I dont know them mostly, dont know if they are just new to the frame or whatevar. But what I can definetly say there are soooo many unexperienced people who often make the majority of CAP in the area...

 

Its literally feeling like you are kirk in the wrath of Khan if you doo GCI for blue at theese times.

You technically have a great ship, you should beat the enemy no problem, thing is you have a freaggin crew of rookies, with practically zero experience. And the amount of experienced crew is just barely able to pull a victory if you want to call the end of wrath of Khan a victory. :D

 

 

 

EDIT: IF someone is going to interpret this post as complaining:

A: It is not

B: It is not.

I am just describing that pretty tragic experience of feeling powerless to coordinate the people you have to pull of a win on teritory. :D

Edited August 5, 2016 by microvax

[Pikey]

I'm 'seeing' a reduction in Squadron attendance overall. I'd interpret the consequence of that to be lack of effect since large groups tend to work better together for common objectives.

 

Again, the numbers and modules are not the limiting factor in Blue Flag, the coordination most certainly is.

 

I have to admit missing playing Blue Flag in large groups, it was more fun.

 

Yes it has done in the past with a script of Xcom's (not during Blue Flag though).

 

But until now it doesn't seem as a priority as the availability of aircraft and pilots is a major part of a dynamic war. Noone ever waited for the enemy to get its numbers before attacking. If it was unplayable or a side won within hours we would change that.

 

Currently it seems like Blue side needs to improve effectiveness when they are more in numbers. It's not easy though as when you have more people in your side with different experience you may find it hard to coordinate (radio, target selection, ATO, fuel consumption etc).

 

Let's see how both sides will do from now on, especially through the weekend which has different number of participation.

 

Greg

[Pikey]

Been there. F10 map is a constant feed of disappointment. It's like the God's eye view without the God's hand, frustrating.

... yeah... experience of outnumbering red 2:1 yesterday.

 

A mirage which first shoots down our A10c striking a farp, which was at least not terrible, tbh for a pilot not speaking in TS he was pretty good spotting a ka50 around the farp etc..

After that shooting our only f15 CAP in the west, so he had to go defensive while merged with ai mig29. On just telling him to use if he is like there were no friendlies.

 

Someone who volunteered to do GCI after I was simply to freakin tired to take the frustration of not beeing able to do anything. Just freakin left without saying anything, literally 3 min after he said he is going to do it.

 

Gazelles that are freakin hovering more then 50m above the ground for no good reason.

 

And mainly just a terrible lack of a constant of CAP that can do shit.

We never have that constant of at least some people in fighters online which can do shit. And its simply annoying as hell.

 

 

I dont say all theese people are terrible pilots I dont know them mostly, dont know if they are just new to the frame or whatevar. But what I can definetly say there are soooo many unexperienced people who often make the majority of CAP in the area...

 

Its literally feeling like you are kirk in the wrath of Khan if you doo GCI for blue at theese times.

You technically have a great ship, you should beat the enemy no problem, thing is you have a freaggin crew of rookies, with practically zero experience. And the amount of experienced crew is just barely able to pull a victory if you want to call the end of wrath of can a victory. :D

 

 

 

EDIT: IF someone is going to interpret this post as complaining:

A: It is not

B: It is not.

I am just describing that pretty tragic experience of feeling powerless to coordinate the people you have to pull of a win on teritory. :D

[gregzagk]

I'm 'seeing' a reduction in Squadron attendance overall. I'd interpret the consequence of that to be lack of effect since large groups tend to work better together for common objectives.

 

Again, the numbers and modules are not the limiting factor in Blue Flag, the coordination most certainly is.

 

I have to admit missing playing Blue Flag in large groups, it was more fun.

 

There seems to be a general reduction in squadrons or squadrons with less active pilots in the DCS community nowadays. I hope I am wrong but we shall see soon.

 

Greg

[microvax]

I'm 'seeing' a reduction in Squadron attendance overall. I'd interpret the consequence of that to be lack of effect since large groups tend to work better together for common objectives.

 

Again, the numbers and modules are not the limiting factor in Blue Flag, the coordination most certainly is.

 

I have to admit missing playing Blue Flag in large groups, it was more fun.

 

 

Dunno about squadrons but i can agree round 6 and 7 were way more fun simply due to the fact that we had a working gorup, at least kinda working group, going.

 

Round 8 is the biggest cluster F since I joined round 6. The testing for round 8 was fun, not because blue had the upper hand but because we had working large scale operations.

 

I do not care about the outcome that much, if the coordination worked I do not care. Try harder.

But if there is cluster F all over the place AND it doesnt work, omg the frustration is real. :DD

 

Edit: Might it be possible to get a list of who is on which frequency on SRS ? That would be really helpfull in case of GCI. Sometimes you simply dont know if people arent there, arent on that freq, arent listening or whatevar. Isnt really "realistic" but it would be appreciated if possible.

[Pikey]

Thats a tough point about radios, not knowing who is there. Not sure it should be tinkered with, we do have an indication of who is on SRS that's it.

 

Same, actually I love losing if it's done well, if the team fought well coordinated and cooperated its my favourite part of internet gaming in any game and one of the best things about Blue Flag.

 

Greg, I've noticed DCS has attendance ups and downs, if ED ever get campaigns sorted, retention will go up.

 

Dunno about squadrons but i can agree round 6 and 7 were way more fun simply due to the fact that we had a working gorup, at least kinda working group, going.

 

Round 8 is the biggest cluster F since I joined round 6. The testing for round 8 was fun, not because blue had the upper hand but because we had working large scale operations.

 

I do not care about the outcome that much, if the coordination worked I do not care. Try harder.

But if there is cluster F all over the place AND it doesnt work, omg the frustration is real. :DD

 

Edit: Might it be possible to get a list of who is on which frequency on SRS ? That would be really helpfull in case of GCI. Sometimes you simply dont know if people arent there, arent on that freq, arent listening or whatevar. Isnt really "realistic" but it would be appreciated if possible.

[Eddie]

Edit: Might it be possible to get a list of who is on which frequency on SRS ? That would be really helpfull in case of GCI. Sometimes you simply dont know if people arent there, arent on that freq, arent listening or whatevar. Isnt really "realistic" but it would be appreciated if possible.

 

What kind of comm plan is in place at present for these events?

 

Dojo keeps trying to sell this to me and convince me to join in with him for a flight, would like to at least get more of an idea of the practicalities and levels of coordination.