RS-2US missile. How to use it?

[Schmidtfire]

How do you properly lock and fire the RS-2US missile? It used to behave somewhat like the R-3R but seems like that has changed...

[Frederf]

The real RS-2US is a beam rider and only works with the fixed beam "spin scan" type radars which we don't have in DCS but we pretend.

 

Proper use is to switch radar to fixed beam and place the radar boresight on the target. After firing just keep this "X" on target until impact, no locking or anything. It follows the "railroad" of your radar until hit or miss.

 

It should not behave like R-3R looking ahead to see reflected radar waves but instead looks backward to your airplane and tries to keep in the middle of your radar beam. Think of it like Vikhr or TOW.

 

I did see it before working much like a homing missile and it is good news that this is changed and fixed.

[Jaktaz]

Is it meant for air to air? That seems really tedious if it is.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

The best way to use them is to hit the jettison missiles button and then fire off your first gun arming charge.

 

But seriously, you need to be pretty close with the RS-2US. I'm talking near gun range.

[Frederf]

Yes, RS-2US is AA. It's meant for intercepting bombers as is the MiG-21 in general. It is perhaps better described as a guided rocket than an air intercept missile. It benefits with a radio proximity fuse such that direct hits are not required. It's typically employed from 1-2km which is outside tail gun range.

 

The RS-2US otherwise known as the K-5MS (or R-5MS service designation) is an improvement over the RS-2U (K-5M) which is a development of the RS-1U (K-5). K-55 (service R-55) is a change of seeker to IR (and possibly a radar homing variant exists).

 

The Kh-66 Grom is a K-5 guidance package on a K-8 missile with a 100kg warhead for ground attack and is employed in a very similar manner to RS-2US.

[zerO_crash]

What I find weird is that, even though MiG-21Bis was capable of using a RS-2US. It couldn`t use KH-66... It`s the same guidance kit. Nothing changed in that department.

 

Since I cannot read cyryllic, it would be of immense help if someone with that skill could actually research whether it could or could not. I realize that KH-66 was never used on it, and the missile possible "could" get confused by the dual beam by RP-22 Saphir, but in such case, why wasn`t it a problem with the RS-2US...

 

LN, I stress it again, NEXT time, outline what is REALISTIC and what is for game purposes in terms of armament.

 

EDIT: I got very good evidence from multiple sources that every MiG-21 after PF was capable of running RS-2US, which I guess no one puts in question. Which even more reinforces the question of what the difference is between K5S Seacker (RS-2US) and Grom`s is.

Edited August 10, 2016 by zerO_crash

[WinterH]

Same case with RS2US, as far as I recall from discussions back then it was for earlier versions of MiG. Since it's the same guidance overall.

[zerO_crash]

See that`s the funny part. I accepted the result back then, based on the discussion. But after doing more and more research, I even find museums claiming that RS-2US was compatible with every MiG-21 with and after PF... Polish, Bulgarian,German, (all of which where operators of this missile) etc...

 

There is something that doesn`t hold true here.

Edited August 10, 2016 by zerO_crash

[WinterH]

If they're anything like museums here, I would take their claims with a grain of salt .

 

They may have simply missed adding something like every "MiG-21 above PF, except the Bis".

 

IF Kh-66 really isn't compatible with RP-22, RS2US shouldn't be either.

[zerO_crash]

Well military ordnance museums. It`s not like I believe it just because of who they are, but I keep stumbling upon more and more claims that everything past PF could...

[portman]

From a former GDR MiG-21 pilot: The RP-21 was able to create a "equal signal zone" (in German 'signalgleiche Zone') by using a rotating beam, on which the RS-2US could ride. The RP-22 was not able to do that, and thus could not be used to guide the RS-2US.

[zerO_crash]

From a former GDR MiG-21 pilot: The RP-21 was able to create a "equal signal zone" (in German 'signalgleiche Zone') by using a rotating beam, on which the RS-2US could ride. The RP-22 was not able to do that, and thus could not be used to guide the RS-2US.

 

You got any source for that? Not that don`t believe, but would never the less be nice to compare it. Alexander Mladenov (a expert on Soviet Aviation, he`s Bulgarian) wrote in his book about MiG-21 (covering all versions in decent degree) that among the armament for MiG-21Bis specifically, you would find Kh-66 Grom as well as RS-2US. Now I cannot spot any thing else in it that`s wrong, but this one thing is just mentioned in detail. Keep in mind, it`s no research paper, more or less a lineup of the whole MiG-21 assortment with details regarding specific systems and such.

Edited August 10, 2016 by zerO_crash

[Schmidtfire]

The Kh-66 and RS-2US are beam riders that were added for gameplay value. My question was: how do we use it? The Kh-66 can be used like the R-3R and also be shot in the fixed beam mode. RS-2US seems to work only in fixed beam mode now, and poorly at that. It used to be more "usable", so something has changed. Either 1: The missile is bugged or 2: it should only be fired in fixed beam mode in straight flight.

[zerO_crash]

The Kh-66 and RS-2US are beam riders that were added for gameplay value. My question was: how do we use it? The Kh-66 can be used like the R-3R and also be shot in the fixed beam mode. RS-2US seems to work only in fixed beam mode now, and poorly at that. It used to be more "usable", so something has changed. Either 1: The missile is bugged or 2: it should only be fired in fixed beam mode in straight flight.

 

Officially LN claimed they were, but in the beginning it all came from a forum discussion. So no, there are sources that claim opposite, and I would like to get to the bottom of this.

 

R-3R doesn`t use fixed beam mode...

 

Also, it`s derailing the thread...

[portman]

You got any source for that? Not that don`t believe, but would never the less be nice to compare it.

 

My source is the former MiG-21 pilot who, I guess, should definitely know what he was able to launch back then ;)

If you are able to understand German, there's also this nice link http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/45110-Lenkraketen-an-MiG-21-Doppelsitzern (lots of former GDR pilots there :thumbup: ) and the topic has also been discussed here http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=129523

[zerO_crash]

My source is the former MiG-21 pilot who, I guess, should definitely know what he was able to launch back then ;)

If you are able to understand German, there's also this nice link http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/45110-Lenkraketen-an-MiG-21-Doppelsitzern (lots of former GDR pilots there :thumbup: ) and the topic has also been discussed here http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=129523

 

Thx for the first link :thumbup:

 

Second one I know as I went through it. That`s why I haven`t been using any of the mentioned loadout either ;) It`s just weird that so many other sources seem to get it wrong. And many of them quite renowned too.

[Art-J]

Maybe they all copied the info from Yefim Gordon's book on MiG-21, since 1990s considered to be a bible on the subject (amongst Western authors at least), but which consists some glaring inanccuracies as well (I THINK RS-2US was mentioned as an option for -Bis too, but I'm too lazy to browse through it again) :D.

 

Will browse through Polish forums with ex-pilots and techs later, because it was discussed there as well.

[Spectrum Legacy]

From what I read, the kh-66 grom could be carried by Mig21PFM (RP-21M 'spin scan') and some variants of Mig23 (sapphire 23 'high lark' with the note that it has to continually illuminate the target and the missile in flight as well). Shortly after, the missile was upgraded with manual steering by joystick in the cockpit and it says that it could be carried by Mig23, Mig27, Yak38, Su17, Su20 and Su24 variants.

 

RS2US could be carried by Mig21 PF / PFS / PFM / R / S and Su9 / U. Radar used was RP-9/-21 'spin scan' or RP-22S sapphire-21 'jay bird' in the S variant of Mig21).

[zerO_crash]

Maybe they all copied the info from Yefim Gordon's book on MiG-21, since 1990s considered to be a bible on the subject (amongst Western authors at least), but which consists some glaring inanccuracies as well (I THINK RS-2US was mentioned as an option for -Bis too, but I'm too lazy to browse through it again) :D.

 

Will browse through Polish forums with ex-pilots and techs later, because it was discussed there as well.

 

Well I got that book as well, can check it too. Generally his books are great (he actually researches the subject), but as with anything, be it typo`s or simple human error, there are smaller faults here and there :music_whistling:

 

Would be golden if you could get some more info on this from techs and such, as you mention.

 

From what I read, the kh-66 grom could be carried by Mig21PFM (RP-21M 'spin scan') and some variants of Mig23 (sapphire 23 'high lark' with the note that it has to continually illuminate the target and the missile in flight as well). Shortly after, the missile was upgraded with manual steering by joystick in the cockpit and it says that it could be carried by Mig23, Mig27, Yak38, Su17, Su20 and Su24 variants.

 

RS2US could be carried by Mig21 PF / PFS / PFM / R / S and Su9 / U. Radar used was RP-9/-21 'spin scan' or RP-22S sapphire-21 'jay bird' in the S variant of Mig21).

 

Yes, that pretty much agrees with what I read other places.

Edited August 10, 2016 by zerO_crash

[Cobra847]

There are bigger issues with Yefim's book than small human errors, unfortunately!

 

The information we have that the beamriders would not work with the -bis comes from polish technicians and documentation.

 

In the end, it's fairly unimportant whether it could or not, because we decided to include it as a gameplay option.

[zerO_crash]

There are bigger issues with Yefim's book than small human errors, unfortunately!

 

The information we have that the beamriders would not work with the -bis comes from polish technicians and documentation.

 

In the end, it's fairly unimportant whether it could or not, because we decided to include it as a gameplay option.

 

Well, thx for the input. You see the reason I go on about this, (well, "went on" ;)) was because I`m a *itch for realism. If it cannot be mounted IRL, then it`s not an option for me. (Yeah I know, sucks to be me). That`s why I wanted to rule out the crap info which seems to circulate many refined sources even. Again, thx for input :thumbup:

 

On a second note, I checked Yefim Gordon`s book on MiG-21, and he doesn`t mention RS-2US nor KH-66 for Bis, so that`s another indication if you will.

Edited August 10, 2016 by zerO_crash

[portman]

You see the reason I go on about this, (well, "went on" ;)) was because I`m a *itch for realism. If it cannot be mounted IRL, then it`s not an option for me.

Same applies for me :thumbup:

[foxbat155]

From what I read, the kh-66 grom could be carried by Mig21PFM (RP-21M 'spin scan') and some variants of Mig23 (sapphire 23 'high lark' with the note that it has to continually illuminate the target and the missile in flight as well). Shortly after, the missile was upgraded with manual steering by joystick in the cockpit and it says that it could be carried by Mig23, Mig27, Yak38, Su17, Su20 and Su24 variants.

 

RS2US could be carried by Mig21 PF / PFS / PFM / R / S and Su9 / U. Radar used was RP-9/-21 'spin scan' or RP-22S sapphire-21 'jay bird' in the S variant of Mig21).

 

Rs-2US only for RP-21/RP-21M/RP-21MA/RP-9 radars what means MiG-21PF/PFS/PFM/R/M/MF and Su-9.

 

H-66 can be carried only by aircraft with RP-21M/RP-21MA radars, this means Soviet MiG-21PFS/PFM and export MiG-21M/MF. That's all, no for aircraft with RP-22, those both radars are different constructions, two different generations.

 

Next missile with joystick steering is H-23M and have nothing common with H-66 except general the same aerodynamical scheme with EVERYTHING new inside. H-23M never was carried by any variant of MiG-21.

Edited August 10, 2016 by foxbat155

[firmek]

To support what Cobra wrote, I can't find anything about RS-2US missile in the Polish instruction for MiG-21. Attached are the tables showing different MiG-21 weapons configurations variants with corresponding weights (plus apendinx for R-60).

 

 

 

 

The armament list includes R-55 which according to the information from wiki has replaced the RS-2US:

The difficulties associated with beam-riding guidance, particularly in a single-seat fighter aircraft, were substantial, making the 'Alkali' primarily a short-range anti-bomber missile. Around 1967 the K-5 was replaced by the K-55 (R-55 in service), which replaced the beam-riding seeker with the semi-active radar homing or infrared seekers of the K-13 (AA-2 'Atoll').

 

EDIT: To be specific, scans are from MiG-21bis operating manual.

Edited August 10, 2016 by firmek

[firmek]

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