TrackIR still worthwhile?

[twistking]

Hello Guys,

i'm new to DCS (but used to play "serious simulators" before) and want to dive into it (probably gonna buy the a-10c first) as soon as i have bought some new hardware.

I figured, that i would need at least trackIR and a better joystick/hotas.

 

the thing is, that in germany a trackIR with the "pro-clip" costs around 200€. (for comaparison: geforce 1060 with 3gb would cost you 210€)

normally i would have paid that, but now with virtual reality gaming becoming "a reality" i don't know how good of an investment that would be.

 

atm i don't want to jump on VR because i would want to buy a new pc for that but i also want to get some more mileage from my current system, which runs dcs very good on old school 1920 (i7 860 oc'ed and a gtx770).

 

are there potential reasons to use trackir even, if i go VR one day? like situations where trackIR would make sense even if you owned a rift?

or other applications besides simulators?

would you think that trakIR at the moment has better support for "normal" games? f.e. i'm also a fan of the "arma" series of games and these have trackIR support but no official VR...

[Astronut]

I'm thinking that the vast majority of those who dismiss the current generation of VR headset for use in DCS World haven't tried it. It's a mind-blowingly better experience in VR. It's not perfect, but it is still streets ahead of a flat screen and Track-IR. Streets ahead.

[Mad Dog 7.62]

I'm thinking that the vast majority of those who dismiss the current generation of VR headset for use in DCS World haven't tried it. It's a mind-blowingly better experience in VR. It's not perfect, but it is still streets ahead of a flat screen and Track-IR. Streets ahead.

 

Yep, once you've flown in VR you cant go back. It is much much more immersive. I do mission editing on the monitor, but that's it.

[Mad Dog 7.62]

In reference to the original question though...TrackIR is very helpful, but it does have its issues as well. I really disliked that your eyes have to swivel around and point in a different direction than your head to keep the monitor in view. If you're looking at say the radios on the left console in the A-10, your head is pointed that way but your eyes are trying to stay focused on the monitor which is up and to the right......very uncomfortable.

 

This is not a problem in VR, and the tracking in VR is MUCH better than TrackIR. You can turn completely around, lean, rotate, do anything you want and the tracking is perfect. VR headsets have a constellation of emitters all the way around the headset while TrackIR uses three, all facing one direction. No comparison.

 

The downside of VR at this stage is of course resolution, but it is livable, and I am sure it will get better in the near future.

 

MD

[TX-EcoDragon]

VR is awesome - I loved using it in DCS, and found the experience of being *IN* the sim really immersive. I'd have purchased a headset after that experience, except there was one big problem: the current VR headsets have a field of view which is much narrower than the human eye, and for users such as myself who weight peripheral vision very highly, a triple monitor setup plus TrackIR still gets you that better than VR.

 

In a combat setting, also keep in mind that to check 6 with VR, you actually have to turn your head almost all the way around - even more than you would need to do so in actuality (for the FoV reason listed above).

 

Once VR approaches representative field of view, I'll be first in line.

[Astronut]

Hmmm. Peripheral vision is important but to be honest all it is good for is picking up movement around the edges of your focused vision. A monitor gives pin sharp vision right out to the edge, so how is that more realistic? VR brings so much to the table and it frankly amazes me that people are throwing up excuses as to why it isn't ready, when it frankly is ready. Of course it will get better with subsequent generations but that doesn't mean what we have now is un-usable or any less amazing. Do you think checking 6 in a real fighter is easy while wearing a helmet and while pulling G's? It is far more realistic to have to put some effort into twisting around to look behind you. Flying fighters is a dynamic and physical activity. It's not easy (or everyone would be able to do it). If anything, flying DCS in VR should give players a new and deeper appreciation of those who do this kind of flying for real.

[sea2sky]

No gloves - no love. Reaching buttons and switches blindly, and still call it immersion?

[twistking]

well, my current pc won't run VR decently and i don't want to buy a new one right now, so i guess VR has to wait a little while either way.

 

still usnure though, if i should invest in trackIR. well, thanks for all the answers though!

 

@ruskybeaver: i read about gloves all the time... is there already some working prototype out or is that just wishful thinking?

[hansangb]

of course. You can look at the switches just fine. Look, I can't explain the color red to someone who was born blind. So talking about immersion level to someone who never tried Rift/Vive in DCS is a waste of time.

 

If you like multimonitor and TrackIR setup, knock yourself out. It's no skin off my back. TrackIR and my three monitor setup was awesome.

 

But now, I could *NEVER EVER* go back to it. I'd rather not fly DCS if I was forced to use the monitors again.

[Guest deeplodokus]

mh seems like no one has mentioned the delanclip here: http://www.delanengineering.com/

 

quite reasonably priced

 

my experience with it (i have the clip + modified ps3 webcam):

- setting up opentrack can be a bit tricky for a good ingame experience

- quite sensitive to direct sunlight in background

- apart from the above, it's great

 

i've been looking for people who have experience with both delanclip/homebrews and real trackIR. is the real trackIR sensitive to background sunlight? in good working conditions, do you honestly feel a difference due to the software?

 

thanks

[twistking]

thanks. that could be decent enough to bridge the time until i am willing to upgrade my pc.

 

just one question: i heard the ps3webcam webcam needs a third-party driver to work under windows. my gaming pc is also my working-pc, so i'm always super, super suspicious about software from "unknown" parties, especially with drivers. where do you get the ps3 driver from?

 

thanks

[Guest deeplodokus]

thanks. that could be decent enough to bridge the time until i am willing to upgrade my pc.

 

just one question: i heard the ps3webcam webcam needs a third-party driver to work under windows. my gaming pc is also my working-pc, so i'm always super, super suspicious about software from "unknown" parties, especially with drivers. where do you get the ps3 driver from?

 

thanks

 

i found a working one somewhere :)

[Len62]

just one question: i heard the ps3webcam webcam needs a third-party driver to work under windows. my gaming pc is also my working-pc, so i'm always super, super suspicious about software from "unknown" parties, especially with drivers. where do you get the ps3 driver from?

 

thanks

 

https://codelaboratories.com/products/eye/driver/ or you may find it elsewhere. I think it costs like $2.00 now, it used to be free. I have been using it for a long time w/o any issues.

[Astronut]

No gloves - no love. Reaching buttons and switches blindly, and still call it immersion?

 

Have you tried it? :blink:

[cichlidfan]

No gloves - no love. Reaching buttons and switches blindly, and still call it immersion?

 

Do you look for the turn signal lever, to use it, in your car? The brain's abilities combined with muscle memory makes the need to see something a bit superfluous in some situations.

 

A star baseball hitter rarely sees where the ball is when he hits it. He just knew where it would be, in 3D space. Hitting a switch that is always in the same place is nothing.

[Goblin]

VR is awesome! Plain and simple.

 

Now, if I could have a real cockpit, with working controls, instruments and what not, combined with a dome projection screen, I'd prefer that. I would. I don't have the realestate available to house a different cockpit for every DCS module, so it's out of the question.

 

I have used TrackIR since the first version. In fact, I wrote the first review of TiR and flightsims for SimHQ, back when you used a mouse to pan around the virtual cockpit in IL-2.

TiR was a gamechanger for flightsimming, and increased immersion profusely.

 

A year ago I got a 21:9 34" curved screen, which also increased the sense of flying, by increasing the FoV.

 

This summer I got to try an Oculus Rift CV1.

I went straight back home and ordered one. I have no regrets.

I have sold my 34" screen.

 

Yes, resolution could be better. Absolutely!

It needs a beefy PC.

Using peripheral controllers like keyboard and buttonboxes is hard...er... It can be done. The human brain is quite amazing in that way. Ok, key combos on a keyboard is not optimal, but using a HOTAS and a buttonbox is totally possible.

It's also possible to use a mouse to interact with the virtual cockpit. I have started to use a Logitech touchpad that works for me.

It's not perfect, but it works well enough.

 

But what's so amazing with VR is the way your brain is tricked into believing what it sees.

You can totally see that you're in a computer flightsim. I mean, the graphics - good as they are - don't really fool anyone.

But, since everything in the virtual world is where it's supposed to be, in percieved distance and location, you start believing it's actually there... Sounds crazy, right?

I have several examples of reaching for the virtual canopy frame to get out of the cockpit. Slamming your head into the wall when trying to look over the cockpit sill, and not understanding why your head won't move past this obstruction you can't see.

It's sick! It really is...

The horizontal FoV in the OR closely resembles the FoV of my old 34" screen. But the vertical FoV is much better. What makes the VR view really stand out, besides everything being in 3D, is the size of everything. It's full size! Scale 1:1. I remember starting flightschool some 17 years ago. I was a flightsimmer long before I started flying for real. I thought I had a slight advantage since I knew my way around the cockpit of the Cessna 172, from MS Flightsim 98. That's until I realized that the instrument panel of my 14" monitor was significantly smaller than the real one. :)

Now, if I had the Oculus back then..!

 

The FoV in the Oculus (and Vive) isn't wide enough to go unnoticed. To me, it's like wearing glasses. If I focus on the frame of my RayBans, they are obstructing the view. But, I normally focus closer to the middle of the glasses to notice the frame. It's the same for the Oculus.

The only time I'm somewhat bothered by the FoV in the Oculus is when I'm craning my neck to look over my shoulder, and my eyes are straining to look further back.

Dogfighting in VR has become a much more physical exercise... ;)

 

VR isn't perfect. Much like using a monitor (or 3) and a TiR has its pros and cons, VR make things better, and worse. To me, it's the next step forward, and I won't be going back. And I hope that we all will be laughing at the Oculus Rift CV1 and HTC Vive in a few years, scorning them like we do 14" CRT monitors today...

[hansangb]

True. The wire frame version of F15 Strike Eagle, and the pyramid mountains of Microprose Gunship come to mine.

[Fakum]

So Goblin,, I have been following this thread and made a few small comments along the way. I am certainly intrigued with Oculus Rift, it really sounds great. I have not had the luxury of trying it though. I use Helios and TrackIR. I also have a few pages of info posted around my pit for reference, such as my HOTAS functions ( because sometimes I might forget something in a pinch). So it seems I would have to go without all of that for VR,,,, with that being said, how difficult has it been to use the mouse to say punch in 9 line info on the CDU etc? It must take a bit longer no?

[hansangb]

There is a kneeboard mod you can use in VR as well. Using the mouse isn't bad at all, actually. You can choose between looking at the button to push (and using a hotas key) or using the mouse regularly.

 

And you can sneak a look out the (nose) bridge of the Rift. I still use my MFDs and am busing (trying) to build my switch box. Life keeps getting the way... :(

[SharpeXB]

Having just tried an Oculus Rift I realize that these devices, VR and TrackIR are really nothing like the same device, although they always get compared.

Both are great products. TrackIR interactively changes your view on a screen.

Virtual Reality is something completely different. It's not a screen. It puts you completely into the world of the game.

This doesn't make one device better than the other or makes either obsolete. They do completely different things and there are advantages and disadvantages to each. So the question of "still worthwhile" isn't really the issue.

[streakeagle]

Until the resolution increases enough to make me happy and hardware can easily run DCS World fast enough at such a resolution, a large TV with TrackIR remains my preferred solution.

 

Vertical resolution is everything to me. I waited years for improvement over 1600x1200, and its replacement, 1920 x 1080 was actually a step down.

 

I am eager to go 4K, but not until I find a hardware combination that supports it well with DCS World: a TV that can handle PC video at 4K/60+ fps and a computer that can generate such a signal while running DCS World, and I would really prefer 120 fps.

 

VR headsets won't even support 1920x1080 for both eyes, much less 4K per eye. As it costs an arm and a leg to run DCS World at 4K/60+ fps on a conventional monitor, I don't think there is a PC that could support VR with 2x4K at 60-120 fps. So for me, VR is still on the horizon. I value being able to clearly read all my instruments at lifesize 1:1 scale than having to see blurry indications or zoom in a bit. I also prefer being able to see an aircraft at as long a range as practical without upscaling cheats on the lod... that means very high resolution for a monitor with a 70 degree field of view like I have right now. 1080p is at best tolerable. 2160p would be a nice step up.

[Goblin]

how difficult has it been to use the mouse to say punch in 9 line info on the CDU etc? It must take a bit longer no?

 

Well... I have never used Helios or anything similar for the CDU, and I would imagine that being faster than using the mouse.

 

I'm used to using the mouse with the TiR, and now I use mouse and Oculus, and this is easier with the Oculus.

With TiR I often had trouble holding my head still long enough to hit buttons with the cursor. The TiR, of course, had a curve that allowed me to check 6 just by looking at the edge of my monitor, so it was a lot more sensitive. The Oculus is 1 to 1 in any movement, and the position tracking is rock solid. The TiR could sometimes pick up a reflection or one of the LED got blocked, causing positional chaos, especially when turning my head and leaning in on the cockpit. This never happened with the Oculus.

 

So I find that using a mouse in VR view is easier than with a TiR, but I don't imagine it being as easy as using a touch screen or button box.

[Goblin]

VR headsets won't even support 1920x1080 for both eyes

 

Both Oculus Rift CV1 and the HTC Vive has a combined resolution of 2160x1200 (1080x1200 per eye).

[Astronut]

Again, if you haven't tried it, you can't really pass judgement on the Rift or Vive. The only thing that I find I miss with the Rift is the ability to take pretty screenshots. I guess I could save the track after a flight and then launch DCS in 2D to grab some shots (although that is a bit of a pain).

 

The resolution, when viewed through the headset, really isn't that bad. It's not tack sharp like a 4K screen i'll grant you, but if you want to have the closest experience to what it actually feels like to be in a cockpit then VR is where it's at.

 

I created these images to approximate the image quality I am seeing with the Rift CV1. It's very usable. Using the VR Zoom function you can read all the small switch labels. Interacting with the switches and buttons, using the mouse is far easier than using the mouse with a Track-IR due to the fact that head tracking is 1:1 in VR, rather than exaggerated with Track-IR. That makes the cursor far more stable and easier to control.

 

 

The images do not represent the FOV, just the perceived image quality.

[Goblin]

What Atronut said. But you also need to enlarge the pics so that they show the cockpit in full scale. Viewing them on a small 15" laptop will give you the wrong impression, if you know what I mean...