AAR - how does one know tanker air speed?

[Gierasimov]

The only part I don't get is how do I know what is the speed of the tanker ahead of me ?

[Padi]

Try and Error and Correction...

[Ilyushka00]

Maybe checking its speed on the F10 map? Not sure how accurate that is though, but yeah pretty much correcting your speed as you approach the tanker.

[Gierasimov]

Right...

 

Try and Error and Correction...

 

Yep, I do that all the time. I guess my point was that this is part of the simulation that is still WIPP (work in progress, perhaps?).

[Gierasimov]

F10 map? No, thank you.

 

Maybe checking its speed on the F10 map? Not sure how accurate that is though, but yeah pretty much correcting your speed as you approach the tanker.

 

I get your point, I just don't use that at all.

Would be the same as going external view of the tanker and checking its speed there... Cheating

[outlawal2]

Then not sure why you are asking for the speed of the plane then as in real life there is no way to know what the speed would be.. You have to come in and figure it out trial and error and match your speed to the tanker..

[Gierasimov]

I beg to disagree

 

Then not sure why you are asking for the speed of the plane then as in real life there is no way to know what the speed would be.. You have to come in and figure it out trial and error and match your speed to the tanker..

 

In real life, people do communicate and in real life pilot does not need to fly into the boom

Tanker gives its position direction and speed. Boom operator helps recepient into position and then operates the boom for contact.

 

So, thank you for your answer. As for the question I asked thinking (with a hope) I missed something.

[SharpeXB]

Real world certainly the tanker can communicate it's heading to you.

But in the game all you need is the bearing and distance. You can tell fairly well what the tankers course is by watching the pointer on the HSI. If you see it moving sideways then you can tell its flying perpendicular to you and then fly an intercept.

The speed of the tanker really isn't important. Just fly fast as you can until you have a visual on it. Then slow down. If you are flying the correct 1000' below it, you can bleed off speed easy enough by climbing.

When connecting just match the speed of the tanker visually. Easier said than done... ;-)

Edited September 6, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Hansolo]

In real life, people do communicate and in real life pilot does not need to fly into the boom

Tanker gives its position direction and speed. Boom operator helps recepient into position and then operates the boom for contact.

 

So, thank you for your answer. As for the question I asked thinking (with a hope) I missed something.

My understanding is that in real life tankers stick to the designated speed and altitudes for the particular aircraft type they need to refuel; https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1819816&postcount=18

If that doesn't match the mission you are flying then perhaps the tanker speed in the mission is not set correctly.

 

Another possibility is to fly with some virtual squadrons that operated with human controllers using LotAtc. They will be able to give you BRAA to tanker, it's heading and airspeed

 

Cheers

Hans

[SharpeXB]

The table above says 220 for an A-10. But that's at 5,000'. When I'm refueling 185 is about the speed I'm flying connected with the tanker at FL 160-200

Edited September 6, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Gliptal]

The table above says 220 for an A-10. But that's at 5,000'. When I'm refueling 185 is about the speed I'm flying connected with the tanker at FL 160-200

Then the mission is wrong. 185 KIAS is way too slow.

[Hansolo]

That not how I understood that whole thread. From my understanding sing it 220KCAS no mattet the altitude.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1820761&postcount=24

 

Cheers

Hans

[Yurgon]

The only part I don't get is how do I know what is the speed of the tanker ahead of me ?

 

Good question. :thumbup:

 

I'm not aware of any non-cheating way within DCS, but if there is one, I'd love to know as well.

 

As long as you have the tanker's TACAN (and the tanker is actually using it), you could at least get a very rough estimate of your closure speed by checking the distance in the HSI. If it drops down by a mile every couple of seconds, you can be sure the tanker is flying head-on towards you, if it changes very slowly, you're obviously just crawling up to it.

 

In MP, you might even get a fighter jock to tell you the tanker's speed, if he can lock the tanker up with radar and you have a way of communicating (chat/TeamSpeak). Just make sure he tells you what type of speed that is (GS/IAS/CAS).

 

Good missions should always give you the tanker's orbit, TACAN, freq, alt and speed in the briefing, and if they include different aircraft types, they should add different tankers (high and fast for the fast movers, lower and slower for the Hogs, and obviously drogue-equipped tankers for M-2000C/Flanker/(AI) Hornet/(AI) Tomcat etcetera).

[SharpeXB]

Then the mission is wrong. 185 KIAS is way too slow.

that's speed is for about every AAR I've ever done in DCS. They all seem to be at higher altitudes.

I just made this video and my IAS is 220 when catching up to the tanker at full throttle. So if he was at 220 I wouldn't be able to catch him. Once again, I'm at 20,000'.

So there's not a set speed the tanker is at, and it really doesn't matter to you when doing AAR. Just fly faster when heading to the rejoin and at exactly the same speed when refueling.

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Yurgon]

Those speeds are for 5,000' They must refer to IAS not TAS.

 

If you're referring to Stuka's post that was referenced here earlier, I'd have thought it's quite simple:

 

220 KIAS actually.

Minimum altitude is 5000 AGL if if mission requirements dictate.

 

Neither he nor the table said that's the speed at 5,000 ft, he only said that's the minimum altitude. Both Stuka and Eddie very specifically talked about IAS, not TAS. But to be honest, I didn't read through any of the documents they referenced for real life procedures -- I just trust that what they post in regards to procedures will usually be pretty spot-on, and that they wouldn't confuse IAS for TAS.

 

Anyway, back on topic, the A-10 definitely isn't the fastest plane around, and mission designers definitely have to take that into account. I think 20,000 ft is pretty high for an A-10; personally I'd set the tanker to maybe 16,000 ft MSL, or maybe even lower if terrain permits.

 

Refueling speed obviously also depends on the A-10's performance under the given circumstances, most notably dictated by loadout/drag and altitude. With LAU-88s and TERs, you've got a lot of drag in that video, and at 20,000 ft, there's not a whole lot performance to play with. A more typical CAS loadout as used in Afghanistan or Iraq would see only one weapon per station, thus a lot less drag, and thus more performance.

 

But again, DCS is somewhat limited here. In RL, if a receiver aircraft couldn't catch up, I'm pretty sure the tanker would do everything in their power to slow down enough, even if that means dropping the flaps in order not to fall out of the sky, or going a lot lower than scheduled.

 

In DCS, the tankers just stay on their merry orbit and watch us drop out of the sky or abort the mission if we can't keep up. :(

 

So, as a mission builder, I'd set a tanker to its orbit, load an A-10 with everything the mission requires, and then check if I can catch up with and climb up to the tanker at all, and make sure the tanker's speed and altitude are okay. Rinse and repeat until it works reliably, so that A-10s don't have to crawl up at just 5 KIAS faster than the tanker. And then, as said before, make sure that all pertinent information regarding the tanker is available in the mission briefing, and then OP's question would be answered. :thumbup:

[SharpeXB]

I think 20,000 ft is pretty high for an A-10; personally I'd set the tanker to maybe 16,000 ft MSL, or maybe even lower if terrain permits.

Sure. Every AAR I think I've seen in missions is about that alt. I found this mission on the User Files and yeah 20,000' is pretty high for the hog.

And yes, I read that wrong. Post edited.

Edited September 7, 2016 by SharpeXB

[johnv2pt0]

IRL all of this info is in the ATO/ACO/SPINS and is part of the mission brief. That's how you're supposed to know.

 

Therefore, since it's part of a standardized brief, it should be written into the briefing page, but mission writers don't think to do that.

 

This.

 

But having done AR IRL myself I will also tell you that this is just what is supposed to happen. It all depends on the skill of the tanker and environmental conditions too. These numbers get to precontact but after that it really doesn't matter what he's flying...you just fly formation off him like any other formation. I've had some tankers vary wildly on the speeds when flying with autopilot off. Sometimes the tanker will communicate what he's doing, usually this isn't the case though. More often the boom operator will give you distances when you're close, but this isn't even always the case. I would say about half the time I would get a plug without any communication at all (except to confirm fuel transfer loads and stuff). In some combat situations there is ZERO communication at all. You fly to make your ARCT and go from there...no radio (in current operations though this is rare)

 

DCS tankers are pretty terrible...they will do crazy stuff like slowing to stall speeds and then when contact is made speeding up like 100 knts. Try not to get discouraged...it's pretty tough in some ways in the sim.

[Sierra99]

The only part I don't get is how do I know what is the speed of the tanker ahead of me ?

 

The information you seek is here...if the information here doesn't math the tanker you're flying against, modify the miz file so it does.

 

Sierra

[Gierasimov]

AAR is not worth the time then...

 

My understanding is that in real life tankers stick to the designated speed and altitudes for the particular aircraft type they need to refuel; https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1819816&postcount=18

If that doesn't match the mission you are flying then perhaps the tanker speed in the mission is not set correctly.

 

Another possibility is to fly with some virtual squadrons that operated with human controllers using LotAtc. They will be able to give you BRAA to tanker, it's heading and airspeed

 

Cheers

Hans

 

The table above says 220 for an A-10. But that's at 5,000'. When I'm refueling 185 is about the speed I'm flying connected with the tanker at FL 160-200

 

Thanks for all that. My final point is that AI controlled tanker would need to be developed further to make AAR practice missions significant.

[SharpeXB]

I misread that post about the table. As pointed out earlier.

Actually just looking at the mission editor, the tanker is flying at 216 in the ones I looked at, which is about right according to those tables. It does slow down though when you go to connect, another example of mine showed us to be at 178 when refueling. Obviously the tanker AI is pretty simplistic. It just slows down so you can reach it easier. Or it goes to a lowest practical speed.

[Gliptal]

I misread that post about the table. As pointed out earlier.

Actually just looking at the mission editor, the tanker is flying at 216 in the ones I looked at, which is about right according to those tables. It does slow down though when you go to connect, another example of mine showed us to be at 178 when refueling. Obviously the tanker AI is pretty simplistic. It just slows down so you can reach it easier. Or it goes to a lowest practical speed.

The speed set in the editor is GS (for some reason), meaning it must be set higher as the altitude increases. The tanker does no slowing down or anything like that.

 

If memory serves, to achieve the correct 220 KIAS @ 15000 feet MSL the speed in the editor must be around 270 KGS.

[Yurgon]

And not if just terrain permits, wherever you please. Airspace is carefully carved up. [...]

 

All around good info, thanks!

 

Of course I thought about some of the aspects you mentioned, I just didn't write them down. ;)

 

Terrain is a more obvious reason for high tanker orbits, but of course you're right that a lot more goes into planning of (not just) tanker tracks, altitudes, speeds and so on.

 

The information you seek is here...if the information here doesn't math the tanker you're flying against, modify the miz file so it does.

 

Also great info, thanks!

 

In that chart there's a column "Reverse A/R capable". Does that mean that the tanker could actually withdraw fuel from the (in that case not quite) receiver aircraft?

 

Plus there's a column "Boom interphone" - Does that mean that boom operator and receiver crew can talk over the intercom as long as the receiver is connected? Wow, I never even thought of that possibility.

 

Thanks for all that. My final point is that AI controlled tanker would need to be developed further to make AAR practice missions significant.

 

I think you're partly right.

 

Then again, if you can refuel in DCS now, and then it's made more realistic at a later point, you should feel like a total pro by then and can look down on all the newcomers who will still say "wow this is too difficult, it's impossible!" :D

 

For instance, look at SharpeXB's video. It sure isn't easy, but it is very much doable already. Personally, I definitely want to be able to perform AAR in DCS, whether it's completely realistic or not (currently pretty confident in the A-10C, but lots of work ahead of me in the M-2000C).

[Eddie1]

Then not sure why you are asking for the speed of the plane then as in real life there is no way to know what the speed would be.. You have to come in and figure it out trial and error and match your speed to the tanker..

Aviva-mebel

[ICS_Vortex]

Then not sure why you are asking for the speed of the plane then as in real life there is no way to know what the speed would be.. You have to come in and figure it out trial and error and match your speed to the tanker..

Aviva-mebel

 

In real life - there is a standard tanker params, Near 220 kts and 15 000 ft.

[ICS_Vortex]

I guess my point was that this is part of the simulation that is still WIPP (work in progress, perhaps?).

 

If you have any problems while refueling - connecting, etc - just make more practice.

After a few hours of flying and trying to refuel - you wont have any problems.

Now I don't care about tanker speed, it doesn't matter for me. Any speed I can refuel.

 

It needs more practice.