PrototypeBayu8 Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 From my observation, the ai in the game just attacks at you using any sort of tactics it wants, and most of the time, it works, but I think it would be better and more realistic if the fighters uses tactics from their respective countries, so western fighters use western tactics while russian/soviet aircraft uses Russian tactics. The tactics used will also depend on the aircraft used, so a mig-29 driver will use tactics differently to su-27 drivers. Ps: Im talking about dog-fighting tactics and maybe we can use the tactics of the countries to some extent for the BVR arena. What do you guys think ?? If in doubt, full afterburner... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 I think you're on the right track Prototypebay. The AI has been DCS's weakpoint forever. Let Eagle Dynamics know when you have created a new advanced working AI logic, I'm sure you would be compensated very well indeed.. good luck with the programming!! :):) http://www.104thphoenix.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrototypeBayu8 Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 I think you're on the right track Prototypebay. The AI has been DCS's weakpoint forever. Let Eagle Dynamics know when you have created a new advanced working AI logic, I'm sure you would be compensated very well indeed.. good luck with the programming!! :):) Trust me, I'm sure they can do it themselves as i cant code at all. Start by some research and pilot interviews, I remember watching a documentary once that a soviet tactic against f-15 radar is to blend in with ground reflection and release chaff If in doubt, full afterburner... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 My point was maybe that the AI has big problems regarding realism to begin with, even without going into their tactical decisions, so coding a new AI is probably an absolutely huge chunk of work that is unlikely to be on top of ED's priority list... http://www.104thphoenix.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrototypeBayu8 Posted September 10, 2016 Author Share Posted September 10, 2016 My point was maybe that the AI has big problems regarding realism to begin with, even without going into their tactical decisions, so coding a new AI is probably an absolutely huge chunk of work that is unlikely to be on top of ED's priority list... Yeah, its a shame, maybe we can get the third-party companies to make the coding for the ai, or is this kinda stupid? idk, if not just implement the fighter tactics that are easier to implement first, and then we'll see If in doubt, full afterburner... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) ... so you don't actually know what the doctrines (because from context, you're talking doctrines, not tactics) are, you just figured you'd say something because you watched something on TV. Maybe if you did real research into the doctrines and presented some real findings, there would be something to discuss :) BTW, 'blending with ground reflection and releasing chaff' is a common radar evasion maneuver ... it doesn't belong to 'west' or 'east'. You talk about 'dog fighting tactics' and you describe what is essentially a BVR maneuver as an example. To answer your question, I think you should investigate the subject 10000000x as deeply as you have so that you can make some educated suggestions. Edited September 10, 2016 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweep Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 My point was maybe that the AI has big problems regarding realism to begin with, even without going into their tactical decisions, so coding a new AI is probably an absolutely huge chunk of work that is unlikely to be on top of ED's priority list... Are you talking 1.2 AI? Because 1.5/2.0 have decent AI, believe it or not. Lord of Salt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuge Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Are you talking 1.2 AI? Because 1.5/2.0 have decent AI, believe it or not. Maybe, I haven't flown that much single lately.. I did notice that the AI has learned to notch amraams actually :D http://www.104thphoenix.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrototypeBayu8 Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 ... so you don't actually know what the doctrines (because from context, you're talking doctrines, not tactics) are, you just figured you'd say something because you watched something on TV. Maybe if you did real research into the doctrines and presented some real findings, there would be something to discuss :) BTW, 'blending with ground reflection and releasing chaff' is a common radar evasion maneuver ... it doesn't belong to 'west' or 'east'. You talk about 'dog fighting tactics' and you describe what is essentially a BVR maneuver as an example. To answer your question, I think you should investigate the subject 10000000x as deeply as you have so that you can make some educated suggestions. The reason I made this thread is that maybe if any of you know more info on fighter tactics than me, we can discuss on it here. Based on what i saw, an engagement with ai on dcs is more like a free-for all, fighters just attack you individually, with no coordination with the rest of the flight, so maybe thats something ED can improve on first, and develop the rest later If in doubt, full afterburner... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn kamikaze Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 The wingman AI would also need an upgrade to do this, I posted a video a while back showing just how useless the wingman AI is, holding back until I'd dealt with the enemy aircraft, even though I'd ordered him to attack a specific target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riproren Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 The wingman AI would also need an upgrade to do this' date=' I posted a video a while back showing just how useless the wingman AI is, holding back until I'd dealt with the enemy aircraft, even though I'd ordered him to attack a specific target.[/quote'] I wouldn't say they are useless. I use them as bait by waiting until a bogey gets on the AI's tail and then slide in behind for a gunshot.:lol: Alienware Area 51, Windows 10, I7-5820k, 6 cores 15mb Cache Overclocked to 3.8GGZ, 32GB Dual Channel DDR4 at 2133mhz, Dual Nvidia Titan X 12MB. 2TB 7200rpm sata 6gb/s, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShuRugal Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 @GGTharos: Is the AI something that is accessible for user modification? It would be interesting to be able to see what parameters are in there and to play around with them to see if we can get anything useful (or perhaps just hilarious) to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I don't believe it is accessible beyond what you can do with the ME, CA and through the LUA exports. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinusoidDelta Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 In the last few years a lot of research has been published applying game theory and optimal control techniques for autonomous descision making in A2A combat. A few examples: http://acl.mit.edu/papers/McGrewSM.pdf http://www.operaatiotutkimus.fi/seminaarit/203/esitykset/virtanenkai.pdf http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/ucacres/PCES.pdf You may recall a month or two ago when a raspberri pi defeated a USAF pilot in a simulator. The pi used something called "Genetic Fuzzy Trees". Information on that technique is also publicly available. It'd be very interesting to see what programmers could come up with if the AI logic in DCS was available!:pilotfly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ktulu2 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 The AI uses tactics. Remember the many times it just began RTB'ing randomly? Well he was bringing you in his SAM coverage!! Seriously though, ACM (which is what you seem to be on about) is something that I think should be practices against real pilots, as AIs are far from impredictable unlike pilots, which makes it kind of a moot point IMHO. I do DCS videos on youtube : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAs8VxtXRJHZLnKS4mKunnQ?view_as=public Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn kamikaze Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 In the last few years a lot of research has been published applying game theory and optimal control techniques for autonomous descision making in A2A combat. A few examples: http://acl.mit.edu/papers/McGrewSM.pdf http://www.operaatiotutkimus.fi/seminaarit/203/esitykset/virtanenkai.pdf http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/ucacres/PCES.pdf You may recall a month or two ago when a raspberri pi defeated a USAF pilot in a simulator. The pi used something called "Genetic Fuzzy Trees". Information on that technique is also publicly available. It'd be very interesting to see what programmers could come up with if the AI logic in DCS was available!:pilotfly: It never beat a pilot, it beat an air battle manager, ie one of those guys that sits in the back of an AWACS, and from that you can infer that it was a broard based tactics vs tactics thing, not a case of pitting a pilot against an AI pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrototypeBayu8 Posted September 17, 2016 Author Share Posted September 17, 2016 Well, i would say, at least improve ai tactics on coordination with other flights, because many times, engagements have felt more like a free for all.. If in doubt, full afterburner... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JazonXD Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Prototypebay, you're missing the point that one of the main reasons why we don't have better tactics like you suggested because no one will give you these military tactics for free. You can find some basic and general BFM tactics, but never detailed strategy and tactics. Plus, their tactics incorporate the technology and abilities that they have, which are not modeled in DCS. If you take a listen at some of the A-10C pilot interviews or Q&A, you'll hear that they wouldn't even talk about the countermeasure systems or loadouts because they could all relate to strategies, which are probably pretty closely guarded and classified. AMD 5600X -- Gigabyte RTX 3070 Vision -- 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 -- HP Reverb G2 -- Logitech 3D Extreme Pro -- Thrustmaster TWCS BRRRT! Car and aviation enthusiast, gun nut and computer nerd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmanni Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 BFM is pretty well known and explored area at least in theory, there's essentially no real secrets to it. It is after all 100 years old art already. The only real secrets regarding BFM are the real performance capabilities of fighters and weapons doing it. The theory of how to fight against a particular kind of fighter is well know, the trick is to not let the other guy know exactly what kind of fighter he's going to be facing. Although in modern times you can probably get a pretty good estimate with simulation. DCS Finland: Suomalainen DCS yhteisö -- Finnish DCS community -------------------------------------------------- SF Squadron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey45 Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Coding AI is one of the most single demanding tasks, and that's not even for Flight Sims.. And no I'm not a coder. The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance. "Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.." https://ko-fi.com/joey45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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