F-22 destroys the Su-27 in super maneuverbility

[Weta43]

Various parts of the defence department have been pushing for swapping the warheads on some ICBM's for either 1/ conventional explosives 2/ a cargo of titanium rods that can be used to flatted anything in a fairly wide area.

Anywhere in the world in under an hour (including getting launch authority).

Now there's a scary thought...

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And then the reciving side thinks it's nuclear while it's on its way and they / their allies send real nukes to you. Yes... very scary.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Why is that?

I don't know and I will not speculate.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Nope, I don't believe they ever will. :music_whistling: I must also mention that several MiG-25s have fallen to enemy fire, but not a single Blackbird has been lost to that.

MiG-25 could shoot the missiles, chase reconnaissance airplanes of the route and perform reconnaissance missions. So it was a multi role platform. And it actually shot missiles and had few kills. And yes some were shot down in those air battles. From what I know, no MiG-25 was shot down over Pakistan while flying reconnaissance missions.

 

Black bird was very unique, very specialized platform that did one thing and it did it darn well. However, do we have any info on how well it worked against MiG-25? How many missions did not rich the mission goal because SR-71 had to divert from course due to SAM-s or MiG-25 treats?

 

Also, Russia spreads over 11 time zones, and one does not need SR-71 to penetrate Russian territory unnoticed.

[Skopro_PL]

last time i read this thread it was on page 7 or so...but anyway, i wont lie and say i dont like and appreciate russian aircraft, they are more durable then any other modern fighter( excluding the a-10) they can land on almost any surface( although that is starting to change as with the mig-29m2 the top intakes are gone along with the intake covers)..Dont get me wrong one of my favorite planes is the f-16,but i could not see it landing on a road somewhere like the Polish air force does with its migs( part of training in case of war and moving the aircraft to remote areas and using country roads as runways)..anyway i was looking through patricks aviaiton and came across a su-30 video now if one of u guys say that the f-22 can do that and is more agile im going to stick a cattle prong in your u know what :P, i mean come on u must be really blind to think an f22 could do this, i sure dont think it can...

 

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/rafale350/1028/

[GGTharos]

last time i read this thread it was on page 7 or so...but anyway, i wont lie and say i dont like and appreciate russian aircraft, they are more durable then any other modern fighter( excluding the a-10) they can land on almost any surface( although that is starting to change as with the mig-29m2 the top intakes are gone along with the intake covers)..Dont get me wrong one of my favorite planes is the f-16,but i could not see it landing on a road somewhere like the Polish air force does with its migs( part of training in case of war and moving the aircraft to remote areas and using country roads as runways)

 

Actually, the F-16 is light enough to do so.

 

..anyway i was looking through patricks aviaiton and came across a su-30 video now if one of u guys say that the f-22 can do that and is more agile im going to stick a cattle prong in your u know what :P, i mean come on u must be really blind to think an f22 could do this, i sure dont think it can...

 

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/rafale350/1028/

 

That's because you a) idolize Russian equipment and b) you don't know what 'can perform all post-stall maneuvers' means ;)

The F-22 is *controllable* post-stall. Just like a Su-30 with TVC ... guess why?

[Skopro_PL]

ok so if u say that it is "controlable" it dosnet mean anything in the terms that at airshows i have yet to see a f22 perform these types of maneuvers.. and you say i idolize russian planes.. thats not all true i look at all the aircraft that fly here and back in Poland(which happens to have russian planes along witht he new f16 block 52+) and i love the viper as much as i love the mig29 now which one would win i cant really say..but that aside im talking about real world maneuvers i have yet to see those performed by the f22..i said nothing in my post about what something can and cant do, i simply say what i have seen...if a f22 can do these things why havent i seen it at any airshows,perhaps they dont want to do it, or maybe its not capable of doing them.. im sure that they have tried and maybe they were sucessful or maybe not,but if they were why not show the full capabilities of the aircraft.. you think the air force is trying to keep it secret or something??come on now..

[GGTharos]

Yes you're right. There's a bunch of stuff that the F-22 hasn't demonstrated.

 

As for why it has not been done, the reasons may be more practical than anything requiring secrecy. All these maneuvers are somewhat dangerous to the aircraft, no matter who built it - the USAF is getting about 1/3 of the F-22's it wanted, so it might make some sense that they restrict maneuvers to prevent accidents.

[Skopro_PL]

very true,but now adays these can be performed in a virtual world if they really wanted to... maybe as far to risk it at high alts,but what kind of risk would there be at trying these at high alt you would have time to recover it unless the controllability of the aircraft is not as great as you make it out to be..the fact remains it that ppl right away jump to the conclusion that a f22 can out supermaneuver a su30 on a basis i have yet to see in the real world, those are the ppl that idolize US aircraft, it seems you throw them a new plane that has TVN and they go carzy because its made in the US ,so it must be better then anything else, and i agree it is a modern fighter with alot of capabilities, but we're talking about maneuverability not whos gonna win at BVR..

[GGTharos]

Whaddya mean not as great as I make it out to be? The F-22 is the only aircraft to maintain a constant 60 degree AoA :)

It can certainly play witht he Su-30. Is it quite as maneuverable as a Su-30? Perhaps not - the Su-30 has more freedom in its TVC, but less TWR. And the Raptor isn't lacking in 90 deg OBA missile capability so I don't see how it matters ;)

As for there being no basis for this comparison - really, what do you think 'can perform all post- stall maneuvers' means? Constant 60 degree AoA?

These aren't exactly non-existant capabilities.

The F-22 was built on technology that has been studied for a -very- long time on the F-16 MAV, F-15ACTIVE, the X-31. /All/ of those were /all/ about super-maneuverability.

The F-22 has been equipped with -all- the supermaneuverability that actually -matters- in combat.

[Skopro_PL]

where is all this evidence on paper?? i need hard proof sorry, show me that and im a believer..

[Guest Cali]

And also, there are reasons why Blackbird does not fly any more.

 

 

Why is that?

 

Like he knows hitman

[wsoul2k]

Theres always tactical nuclear warheads that the hornets can carry...I forget what Mk version they are.

 

Edit::B-61 ver.

 

The first day we saw a tactical nuclear warheads be employed.....the no proliferation agreement will BLOW

 

And we will see every contry in the world start to develop warheads :(

[Mirgorod]

I have actually read the entire damn thread... phew... Long riff-raff about nothing. After all, who cares about supermaneuverability? In combat it's not about performing stunts, it's about winning, and doing it from as far away as possible, preferrable with ICBMs on the grand scheme of things. I think BVR capability is much much much more important than any close-quarter stuff. As far as I know, the Russians are trailing behind in this particular aspect, but this is !only! to my knowledge. On the other hand, you must keep in mind that to underestimate Russia is to die. Most Russians hate Viktor Suvorov (Rezun), but he was right in stating that while T-72 was already the backbone of the Soviet tank forces, NATO still thought that T-55 was by far the most numerous type. It's all about deception, kids. Same here. What they show you is not necessarily the best they have. And if Su-27 and Mig-29 have been performing this way looong before the F-22 was even incepted, they HAVE to have something now that outperforms the F-22 by a wide margin. If they need to produce it in large numbers, they will. No doubt about it. To all Americans here - guys, cool it. The Germans made a fatal mistake with the Russians once. Do you want to fall prey to the Russian deception techniques? NEVER underestimate their capabilities. And, they are not your typical friendly teddy bears, too. Big grizzly beasts with sharp claws. Constant alert is needed. Bragging is not going to help.

I do hope that no military conflict will pitch Su's and Raptors against each other, because if something like this happens we would not live to witness the end of it. Any American-Russian conflict will immediately go nuclear, which means that Moscow and Washington will evaporate within 20 minutes from the beginning of hostilities, and the rest of the world will follow within several weeks. In this context I think the childish bragging about the outstanding manuevering capabilities of the F-22 is pointless.

[3Sqn_Sven]

Why the hell is this thread still active? No one here has access to any classified data and almost no one here has ever flown a jet fighter... They're both really cool jets lets leave it at that! Why debate it? Will any fighterpilot or test pilot EVER qualify to fly both and know for sure...unlikely. Every person on this forum is basing their arguments on their own perception of video footage of each jet and/or the articles and commentary of self proclaimed aviation "experts" (who also don't have access to classified data). Anyone who thinks they know more is either full of crap or shouldn't be posting it! Seeing as no one is qualified to declare which one is better, why argue it?

 

So many pages of heated to-and-froe arguments...just go play lock on online!

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Actually, the F-16 is light enough to do so.

 

once :)

[Force_Feedback]

I have actually read the entire damn thread... phew... Long riff-raff about nothing. After all, who cares about supermaneuverability? In combat it's not about performing stunts, it's about winning, and doing it from as far away as possible, preferrable with ICBMs on the grand scheme of things. I think BVR capability is much much much more important than any close-quarter stuff. As far as I know, the Russians are trailing behind in this particular aspect, but this is !only! to my knowledge. On the other hand, you must keep in mind that to underestimate Russia is to die. Most Russians hate Viktor Suvorov (Rezun), but he was right in stating that while T-72 was already the backbone of the Soviet tank forces, NATO still thought that T-55 was by far the most numerous type. It's all about deception, kids. Same here. What they show you is not necessarily the best they have. And if Su-27 and Mig-29 have been performing this way looong before the F-22 was even incepted, they HAVE to have something now that outperforms the F-22 by a wide margin. If they need to produce it in large numbers, they will. No doubt about it. To all Americans here - guys, cool it. The Germans made a fatal mistake with the Russians once. Do you want to fall prey to the Russian deception techniques? NEVER underestimate their capabilities. And, they are not your typical friendly teddy bears, too. Big grizzly beasts with sharp claws. Constant alert is needed. Bragging is not going to help.

I do hope that no military conflict will pitch Su's and Raptors against each other, because if something like this happens we would not live to witness the end of it. Any American-Russian conflict will immediately go nuclear, which means that Moscow and Washington will evaporate within 20 minutes from the beginning of hostilities, and the rest of the world will follow within several weeks. In this context I think the childish bragging about the outstanding manuevering capabilities of the F-22 is pointless.

 

Dude, that is by far the best post I have ever read on any forum in my entire life, you're so great. And it points out the futility of such speculative threads, one says "surely the Russians can't do that" (GG), other says "yeah right, but the F-22 isn't as agile as the propaganda says it is" (velko, sometimes I :P). The thing is nobody over here knows the exact capibilities, we only repeat the country's/manufacturer's bullsh** they spread among us. And always remember you're influenced by the country you live in, even if you don't watch tv, talk to people or have any kind of life, you're always a programmed citizen, and I (also programmed, but by 2 sides=even worse) often see such stereotypical behavoir on these boards. Being from the US doesn't mean everything else sucks, and being from Russia is not a reason to hate the United States, or its aircraft. Don't fear your goverment, the goverment should fear you. And try being as objective possible, without guesstimates and 'they probably can do that' in such long, well visited threads.

 

I said my useless thing, brag on. :|

[Pilotasso]

Dont get me wrong one of my favorite planes is the f-16,but i could not see it landing on a road somewhere like the Polish air force does with its migs( part of training in case of war and moving the aircraft to remote areas and using country roads as runways).http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/rafale350/1028/

 

Actually, the F-16 is light enough to do so.

 

once :)

 

Heres how a mig manages to use other surfaces as runway:

 

Gear up, flaps up, blown up.

 

Its 1 time use also. :)

[TucksonSonny]

Heres how a mig manages to use other surfaces as runway:

 

Gear up, flaps up, blown up.

 

Its 1 time use also. :)

 

WTF are you talking about?

Is it something I missed in the 20 pages long post or is it just a joke that I don’t understand?

[Pilotasso]

yes

[Mirgorod]

Its 1 time use also. :)

 

You are so wrong :) MiG-23/27/29 can all use unprepared fields, which can basically be any patch of grass. Just look at those heavy mudguards on the nose gear strut. Plus the intake covers. What, you think it's just for show? ;) This is the whole philosophy: frontline aviation must be able to follow the advancing frontline, obviously. Do you know that An-124 Ruslan can land on a grass field? Mean pressure of the wheels is soooo low :) you would never believe that looking at the size of that mother.

[Pilotasso]

LOL J/K just pulling your leg.

 

Anyway, theres a big difference between polands old mig-21's on grass and other more developed countries who can use better planes/surfaces. The falcons main gear is actualy quite strong. But we dont use them like that for preventing engine damage due to FOD or structural fatigue. But we do have plenty of alternative tarmac, its lot like puting a whole on the runway takes them out of commission. First you have to either destroy them or put 1 hole from side to side per 400 feet on every tarmac surface. If you ever saw my cojntry from above you would see how daunting that would be. ;)

[Force_Feedback]

Well, they still need either steel or aluminium tiles in order to take-off and land on gress, but nothing more than that. Just give some conscripts 3 hours to make a runway, and you really have a runway then :P

Let's we get them iron or amuminium tiles in Black Shark, so we finally can utilise the su-25 the way it was meant to.

[TucksonSonny]

LOL J/K just pulling your leg.

 

Anyway, theres a big difference between polands old mig-21's on grass and other more developed countries who can use better planes/surfaces.

 

I guess Poland has a more developed air force than Portugal (with Poland having f16 block 52+ together with the German mig29’s for a start) ;)

[Guest Cali]

Why the hell is this thread still active? No one here has access to any classified data and almost no one here has ever flown a jet fighter... They're both really cool jets lets leave it at that! Why debate it? Will any fighterpilot or test pilot EVER qualify to fly both and know for sure...unlikely. Every person on this forum is basing their arguments on their own perception of video footage of each jet and/or the articles and commentary of self proclaimed aviation "experts" (who also don't have access to classified data). Anyone who thinks they know more is either full of crap or shouldn't be posting it! Seeing as no one is qualified to declare which one is better, why argue it?

 

So many pages of heated to-and-froe arguments...just go play lock on online!

 

 

Sven, they won't stop your just wasteing your breath. I whole heartly agree with you though.