F-22 destroys the Su-27 in super maneuverbility

[Mizzy]

Hi Wanks

 

Don't you think your thread title was way way misleading!

 

I personally feel the Su27/33/35 etc, especially thrust vectored designs, way in advance of the F22 but lack the stealth and the advanced avionics, but that's all.

 

Anyway why argue about it in the first place! I mean is it likely the Su35 is ever going to face the F22 or any other Russian design? I mean come on now..;)

 

If it ever happend, my bet to win will be the best pilot!

 

Mizzy

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup, and supermaneuverability is a great asset, but it pales in comparison to all of the other components of networked warfare. :)

 

However, ROE makes close combat almost inevitable in a low-intensity conflict.

 

Back to the WTC sub-topic, perhaps supercruise may have had some value in a situation like that. Getting the fighters on target MUCH more quickly. Actually, in that scenario, it wouldn't have done much to change the outcome because NORAD was still trying to figure out what was going on. An attack from within wasn't exactly something they had trained for.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Yup, and supermaneuverability is a great asset, but it pales in comparison to all of the other components of networked warfare. :)

And the prime example for networked warfare (air) is MiG-31.

[GGTharos]

Actually no, I disagree - the MiG-31 came after other fighters which already used that concept, I think. What I mean is, the MiG-31 is not revolutionary, just evolutionary, using a pre-existing technology to advantage in a unique role.

[Pilotasso]

The Mig-31 however was ALOT better at it than any other russian fighter at the time and i believe the F-14 didnt have that kind of capability but so did the TOMCAT have other advantages over the mig-31 like true long range AA capability with 6 on 6 engagements.

My view is that they were both to fill different mission objectives, the Mig would be good to scare off fighters without much BVR reach, but versus the tomcat would be a hazardous endeavour that should be avoided. For the Tomcats missiles give it the ability to turn away from the migs missiles once they go active, on top of the fact that the phoenix, according to the books has a greater range than the Amos.

 

The primary mission for the mig was to hunt down long range bombers over large areas but I think they were more likely to end up going against fighters much like the Tomcat did. Except the mig cant turn at all, although it would probably do a good job dodging missiles by high speed much like its older brother the foxbat did in Iraq.

 

BTW isnt the mig-31 STILL the fastest fighter in service?

[Weta43]

First plane opperational in the world with electronically scanned radar...

Track 10, engage 4 targets at the same time.

[GGTharos]

The Mig-31 however was ALOT better at it than any other russian fighter at the time and i believe the F-14 didnt have that kind of capability but so did the TOMCAT have other advantages to the mig-31 as true long range AA capability with 6 on 6 engagements.

 

I'm quite certain the cat had an FDL as well as a datalink from the E2 :)

[Pilotasso]

Edited the last message could you coment on the rest? :)

[Guest IguanaKing]

I'm quite certain the cat had an FDL as well as a datalink from the E2 :)

 

Yup, it had both, as well as datalink with ground radar stations. A good friend of mine was a Staff Sergeant with USMC MACS 23 in Colorado. He told me the F-14 was one of many Navy and MC aircraft that his unit trained with and provided target info via datalink. They apparently could even fly the aircraft right onto the target with the aircraft's interface between datalink and autopilot. Those were the only un-classified details on its capabilities that he could share, so I'm thinking it was probably capable of even more.

[GGTharos]

My view is that they were both to fill different mission objectives, the Mig would be good to scare off fighters without much BVR reach, but versus the tomcat would be a hazardous endeavour that should be avoided. For the Tomcats missiles give it the ability to turn away from the migs missiles once they go active, on top of the fact that the phoenix, according to the books has a greater range than the Amos.

 

I'll point out here that I -think- the MiG-31's purpose is -not- engaging fighters. Rather, I believe its purpose is specifically to roll up a SAC attack (B-52's, B-1's, and whatever B-2's it might somehow catch)

 

The primary mission for the mig was to hunt down long range bombers over large areas but I think they were more likely to end up going against fighters much like the Tomcat did. Except the mig cant turn at all, although it would probably do a good job dodging missiles by high speed much like its older brother the foxbat did in Iraq.

 

BTW isnt the mig-31 STILL the fastest fighter in service?

 

 

Okay, right - well, keep in mind that the MiG-31 can beam at an actual 90 deg so it has some serious F-Pole :)

However it is my understanding that the R-33 is a poor missile to use against a fighter -and- the MiG-31 is a homeland defense aircraft, and would not likely be deployed elsewhere and dedicated to hunting fighters which is something the flanker would happily do.

[Prophet_169th]

169th_Prophet and I were both in fully armed Su-25t's one day. On one ingress to Tuapse we downed three Su-27's ... I'm not saying we're awesome or anything, but it comes down to red pilot skill vs. blue pilot skill

 

LOL!!! I remember that so well, and its not like they were luck shots either, they all went to close combat!!!!

 

Those were fun!

 

Now if I could get my hands on an F-22 or JSF :D

[Weta43]

"Except the mig cant turn at all"

 

PERFORMANCE:

 

Max permitted Mach No. at height: Mach 2.83

Max level speed:

at 17500 m (57,400 ft): 1620 knots (3000 km/h; 1865 mph)

at S/L: 810 knots (1500 km/h; 932 mph)

Max cruising speed at height: Mach 2.35

Econ cruising speed: Mach 0.85

Service ceiling: 20,600 m (67,600 ft)

g limit: supersonic: +5

 

ALso - at least one site says that they can carry the R-27 family of missiles (now).

 

Which isn't great, but still counts as a turn...

[Guest IguanaKing]

Hmmm...those performance figures say exactly what, in regards to the afforementioned statement that they can't turn?

[Weta43]

g limit: supersonic:>5G

Which isn't great, but still counts as a turn...

[Force_Feedback]

And the mig-31 has a radar fov of 240*, 30 more than '90', so it can look back. Yes, serious F-poling, BUT, when it was flying a mere 5km behind a Tu-160, it could lock the tu-160, but the radar had no firing soloution or the missile was unguidable. So, against modern ECM the vanilla mig-31 doesn't fare too well.

[nscode]

Okay, right - well, keep in mind that the MiG-31 can beam at an actual 90 deg so it has some serious F-Pole :)

However it is my understanding that the R-33 is a poor missile to use against a fighter -and- the MiG-31 is a homeland defense aircraft, and would not likely be deployed elsewhere and dedicated to hunting fighters which is something the flanker would happily do.

 

I agreee. But even in a fighter I dare you to not deal with it (R-33). And while you're doing that the flanker would happily close in on datalink guidance.

 

(I'm not saying it's a sure win, just that it has a potential tactical use)

[Pilotasso]

I'll point out here that I -think- the MiG-31's purpose is -not- engaging fighters. Rather, I believe its purpose is specifically to roll up a SAC attack (B-52's, B-1's, and whatever B-2's it might somehow catch)

 

I would be carefull saying the Mig-31 can do 90º off F pole. While modern AESA radars might be able to do it, PESA may not be the same case, even more when the beam is 90º off the dish the projected area is virtualy null.

 

It is thought that the raptor may have sidways auxiliary antennas for that effect. Does the mig have them as well?

 

I'll point out here that I -think- the MiG-31's purpose is -not- engaging fighters. Rather, I believe its purpose is specifically to roll up a SAC attack (B-52's, B-1's, and whatever B-2's it might somehow catch)

 

Whell, when the mig first came to service, the first thing they did was to station the first examples facing japan, to scare off American and japanese flights who were making pressure on the russians. They claim the migs succeeded in that role and those flights diminished greatly.

[tflash]

I'm still trying to assess the exact relationship of the Mig-31 with the topic "F-22 destroys the Su-27 in super maneuverbility". Any help welcome :D

[nscode]

They apparently could even fly the aircraft right onto the target with the aircraft's interface between datalink and autopilot.

 

Nottin' special... MiG-21 could do it :)

[Guest IguanaKing]

Nottin' special... MiG-21 could do it :)

 

Roger that, Nscode...just saying that the F-14 had that ability. Many people seem to think that American aircraft didn't have this capability until recently, and it isn't the case. ;)

[Force_Feedback]

I would be carefull saying the Mig-31 can do 90º off F pole. While modern AESA radars might be able to do it, PESA may not be the same case, even more when the beam is 90º off the dish the projected area is virtualy null.

 

It is thought that the raptor may have sidways auxiliary antennas for that effect. Does the mig have them as well?

 

 

 

Whell, when the mig first came to service, the first thing they did was to station the first examples facing japan, to scare off American and japanese flights who were making pressure on the russians. They claim the migs succeeded in that role and those flights diminished greatly.

 

The vanilla mig-31 radar has a frontal coverage of 240 degrees. So, it would be not 90, but 120 degrees, with a non-moving phased array radar.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I'm still trying to assess the exact relationship of the Mig-31 with the topic "F-22 destroys the Su-27 in super maneuverbility". Any help welcome :D

Networked warfare, post 127.

[GGTharos]

I agreee. But even in a fighter I dare you to not deal with it (R-33). And while you're doing that the flanker would happily close in on datalink guidance.

 

(I'm not saying it's a sure win, just that it has a potential tactical use)

 

Yeah, I wouldn't exactly fly straight into it dropping chaff all the way, hehe ;)

[GGTharos]

I would be carefull saying the Mig-31 can do 90º off F pole. While modern AESA radars might be able to do it, PESA may not be the same case, even more when the beam is 90º off the dish the projected area is virtualy null.

 

I wouldn't be too careful about it ;) IIRC the MiG-31 has the antenna mounted ona mechanical gimbal so that it can achieve -exactly- that.

 

Whell, when the mig first came to service, the first thing they did was to station the first examples facing japan, to scare off American and japanese flights who were making pressure on the russians. They claim the migs succeeded in that role and those flights diminished greatly.

 

 

Flights of recon aircraft?

[Guest IguanaKing]

Flights of recon aircraft?

 

It may have worked, somewhat, against RC-135s. It didn't seem to be too effective against SR-71s though. :D