About Mirage 2000C speed

[jojo]

If the Vne is 750, hitting 800 with 'no problems' was just kind of lucky :)

 

I f you say so it has to be true :music_whistling:

[vparez]

Yeah,

 

- 679kn at full power (100%); M=1.03

- 993kn at full afterburner; M=1.51

 

These are stable speeds from a level flight at 300ft ASL. Clean configuration with a no.1 prototype skin (hey maybe paint is the problem;) ). T=20degC, summer, Caucasus map over water. Started the run with 100% internal fuel, when I hit about 50% I went back to full power no re-heat and again obtained 679kn as in the beginning. So, the mass reduction didn't significantly affect this milestone. Used autopilot + hstab.

 

Edit: tested in 1.5.4 stable

[JunMcKill]

OK, let's answer in 2 parts:

 

 

Logical expectation. For this, please wait until the module is out of beta. During beta stage, lots of things, including FM, are tuned, sometimes using a trial-and-error process.

 

 

Logical expectation. But what are the real life specs? There is an interesting question. :) And not an easy one to answer (unless you aren't allowed to talk much about it).

 

I agree, lets wait the developer fine tuning the FM during the beta.

 

Like others posted, I've seen Mirage coming from above and reaching more than 900knts for a while, not only a few seconds, I think should have damaged the airframe, but again the FM is in beta.

[microvax]

If the Vne is 750, hitting 800 with 'no problems' was just kind of lucky :)

 

 

 

They do implement some unpleasant effects on the control surfaces, but no damage. The 'shaking' probably induces enough drag to prevent you from going much faster, though you could do so in a dive. :)

 

There is no damage implementation yet, but there is one supposed to be there, in the future. :)

[Ktulu2]

Yeah,

 

- 679kn at full power (100%); M=1.03

 

 

Edit: tested in 1.5.4 stable

 

Supercrusing ASL is...unlikely indeed.

[OperatorJack]

Supercrusing ASL is...unlikely indeed.

 

Isn't it only supercruise on dry power?

[Ktulu2]

Hmm, not sure what you mean.

What I meant was that from what I know supercruise happens at medium altitudes, and plane manufactures are usually not too quiet about supercruising, especially Dassault!

 

(You know, the guys that said the rafale was as stealth as the F-35 ;) )

[Azrayen]

If you're reaching 930kCAS at SL without issues, you're driving an X-15.

(...)

No module models this, but it would be nice to see.

 

Tharos, I never said 930kCAS at SL (or any level for that matter) is OK. :D Particularly with ~standard conditions described since (air at 20°C).

I just pointed that the FM is still WIP for some part. And that's obviously one of them. ;)

 

 

This is very logical, and the M2K undoubtedly has a posted Vne ...

Yes this is logical. No the 2K has no fixed Vne (sorry). The limit is an impact T° (which will translate to a CAS, but will depend on the current conditions). Just like Concorde, BTW.

 

(You know, the guys that said the rafale was as stealth as the F-35 ;) )

Now, that would be a link to share :)

 

++

Az'

Edited October 6, 2016 by Azrayen

[vparez]

Isn't it only supercruise on dry power?

 

Yes, it was M=1.03 on full military power (no afterburner), so that should count as supercruise.

 

Anyway, the boys from RAZBAM are doing an excellent job on this bird, and I have no doubt that the release FM will be top quality. I have nothing but admiration for their work on this excellent module! :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

That's not surpecruise - you're in the trans-sonic region :)

 

Yes, it was M=1.03 on full military power (no afterburner), so that should count as supercruise.

 

Anyway, the boys from RAZBAM are doing an excellent job on this bird, and I have no doubt that the release FM will be top quality. I have nothing but admiration for their work on this excellent module! :thumbup:

[Pocket Sized]

If you dive from 40k at M2.0 you can do an ASL flyby at 1200+ kts IAS.

 

Even just doing a zoom climb to 45k and then diving back down gives similar results.

 

IMO a FBW pitch oscillation at such breakneck speeds would be an excellent deterrent to keep people from exceeding Vne :joystick:

[vparez]

That's not surpecruise - you're in the trans-sonic region :)

 

It's a very arbitrary definition. Chuck Yeager did M=1.06 and that was called a supersonic flight.

 

So doing M=1.03 in a 1970' fighter, without afterburners, can also be arbitrarily called supercruise. :thumbup:

[zerO_crash]

If you're reaching 930kCAS at SL without issues, you're driving an X-15. This is very logical, and the M2K undoubtedly has a posted Vne ... which if I recall is around 750kCAS. WEhen you exceed this, you should be in real danger of losing control surfaces, canopy, or just outright destruction depending on circumstances.

 

No module models this, but it would be nice to see.

 

Uhm, FW190D9 as well as BF109K4 model this. If you dive in too fast, you get oscillation (pretty heavy too), if yo neglect it, shortly after your ailerons rip off (sometimes on one side, sometimes on both), esp. if a small deflection is applied. That said, you`d need some hard evidence to prove that such would happen to a modern aircraft.

 

Remember when they were trying to reach highest possible speed in F16 on the deck, canopy (due to temperature) started to get soft, but no indication of physical damage to any control surfaces. Just as an example. (Of course there is much wear on the airframe, but apparently not enough to damage it right away, possibly over prolonged flight regime).

[probad]

So doing M=1.03 in a 1970' fighter, without afterburners, can also be arbitrarily called supercruise. :thumbup:

 

conveniently ignored the -cruise half of the word.

[Martini]

There are many planes that are faster down low and and slower at altitude than other planes. airframe drag, wing shape and engine design/tuning among other things influence this. The B-1B will outrun most fighters on the deck but are about half as fast as the same fighters at altitude.

 

I wouldn't rely on wikipedias numbers, especially since they aren't even the same conditions/configuration/fuel state.

[Rlaxoxo]

There are many planes that are faster down low and and slower at altitude than other planes. airframe drag, wing shape and engine design/tuning among other things influence this. The B-1B will outrun most fighters on the deck but are about half as fast as the same fighters at altitude.

 

I wouldn't rely on wikipedias numbers, especially since they aren't even the same conditions/configuration/fuel state.

 

Everybody can change info on Any wiki page

[Boagord]

Yes, but you can see the sources, wikipedia is just a portal : "Data from Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft,[5] International Directory of Military Aircraft[6]"

[Boagord]

Yes, my point is that wikipedia is not worse than books or other sources.

[zerO_crash]

Yes, my point is that wikipedia is not worse than books or other sources.

 

Yes it is, not being a primary source means that it puts it below. That is not to say that all books are primary sources, but wiki is not something you reference as a source, exactly for that reason. It will never be a primary, only interpretation of others.

Edited October 7, 2016 by zerO_crash

[GGTharos]

Wikipedia is often a reasonable start to find other sources. Some data is reasonable, ie. history, empty weights etc, but typically incomplete, eg. for a single variant among many.

[The Black Swan]

.... So when exactly does supercruise start?

[GGTharos]

The military application and thus definition of supercruise involves the following factors:

 

* Carrying a useful load

* Maintaining the speed for a relatively long time (20 min) with efficient fuel expenditure

* Carrying a useful combat load

 

From the first point, you can see that M1.03 isn't really that much different from M0.95 in terms of speeding up combat, while it probably violates the last point.

[vparez]

Ggtharos, the mirage should not be supersonic at sea level without the afterburner.

 

If supercruise is not a term acceptable to the military aviation experts, then i suggest we call the dry thrust m1.03 of the current mirage: a bug.

 

Or maybe the definition of a bug precludes the use if this term for this purpose?

[GGTharos]

Well, the bug would go like this:

 

'Mirage 2000 exceeds documented maximum speed at 0g acceleration'

 

The problem with reporting this as a bug is that the 'top speed' may actually be reported with 0.03g acceleration remaining for example - I've seen such graphs elsewhere.

 

I don't have a handy chart showing the Mirage's maximum speed at SL unfortunately. I just know that other fighters are capable of reaching those speeds when clean, so it isn't a strange thing or anything.

 

Ggtharos, the mirage should not be supersonic at sea level without the afterburner.

 

If supercruise is not a term acceptable to the military aviation experts, then i suggest we call the dry thrust m1.03 of the current mirage: a bug.

 

Or maybe the definition of a bug precludes the use if this term for this purpose?

[jojo]

To make it short:

- the original clame of the first post that M-2000 shouldn't exceed 1110km/h at sea level was a mistake because of Wikipedia.

- Max sea level speed with after burner should be around M1.12/ M1.2 (750/ 800kt)

- That limit (750/ 800kt) is true for all altitude. It's mainly because of impact temperature which should cause problems (melting some probes/ antennas, heat damage to windshield) before going into airframe problems.

 

The "LIM" light should turn on with a sound when you reach this speed limit. It seems it isn't active yet.