Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 9

[Frostie]

The issue that people aren't seeing regarding buffing the Su27 is the the proprietors of this discussion seem to keep applying incorrect tactics to take advantage of the Su27. I don't understand the logic behind the self-imposed authority on balance changes by people who employ the tools given to them incorrectly. Success is possible in the Su27 and that's an undeniable fact. You will have to use different tactics than a Mirage or F15, but that's the case for every airframe.

 

It sounds like when in an Su27 you're thinking gorgonzola when it's clearly brie time...then trying to change the rules to meet your expectations.

 

What do people think DataLink is going to do for a 1v1 fight (most common in BF) where DataLink radar coverage isn't an option? How is this supposed to support the claims and address the airframe, missile, radar, structural performance (all conjecture) that have been cited recently in this thread as the cause for the Su27's deficiencies?

 

It won't. If you want to solve the Mirage problem, solve the Mirage problem...don't create another with perceptions and personal failures with the Su27.

Please enlighten us on these tactics?

Hide, play dead or do what stikers do and run or defend for your life.

 

Have you even flown the Flanker on red and if not then how on earth can you have a valid opinion. I bet you believe the eos is some magic tool, i'm sure you don't realise that it doesn't see Mirages much past 25km.

 

Let me explain what tactics a Flanker needs to use in this situation.

Teamwork, outnumbering the enemy and out positioning him.

 

To out number the enemy you need more numbers, well when all is balanced in a number restricted server numbers should be even, so this is not a viable tactic, when defending outnumbered it just gets ridiculously impossible.

 

Teamwork and outpositioning the enemy, to do this you need good SA with your buddies and the bandits. Datalink provides this, it is not consistent and i'm sure there would be more times you don't see friendly and bandit than you do. Without Datalink the Mirage and F-15 has far superior SA with superior RWRs that give a birdseye view of your surroundings whether your spiked or not, plus the ability to stay high and utilise the radar for max effect, you can do this because you have the longest stick.

 

You try to be high in a Flanker and gain some SA you're going to get spanked like the tacview I showed earlier of how much faster the 530 is vs the 27R, that being in the advantageous position of being high vs the Mirage low, just imagine co-altitude or even worse the Flanker low. So SA wise it is all down hill for the 27.

 

So currently in BF you have to be low with less SA than your opponents, an eos that doesn't see the Mirage too well and weaker missiles. Is this a viable tactic?

 

The fact is you don't know squat about flying the Flanker in BF and fail to acknowledge the ability of the pilots that do fly them.

 

I honestly wouldn't call that "just so much better", especially with the added detriment to the Mirage's radar being subject to clutter filtering and losing track/lock MUCH more probable. That isn't the case for the Su27's radar.

 

 

This is such an over used and wrong statement, the Mirage loses lock just the sameway FC aircraft lose lock, it's called the notch

Another reason is because a pilot exceeds gimbal, not horizontally but a combination of vertical and horizontally which gives a false impression of being within gimbals.

This is down to inexperience in how to crank and dive efficiently.

 

Add to that the Mirage has a high prf that performs in the chase just as well as its low and med prf does, FC doesn't get this you have to go med prf if you're chasing a bandit which is how prf should work.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Frostie

[AbortedMan]

You're telling me that being lower than a Mirage is the disadvantagous position to be in and I'm the one that doesn't know squat about flying the Su27? This is probably why you think the 530D is some sort of ultra-missile. Do some research before you start throwing that trash around.

 

The fact is I got my peepee slapped real hard when using the Su27 multiple times so I went to other servers and practiced against human opponents until I consistently survived and got kills with every available weapon system reliably. Then I did it all again with a wingman. You know what? It worked.

 

What I did not do is run to the server's forum thread and try to change the mission rule set to cater to my shortcomings as a person who cannot have some introspective criticism, cannot learn from their mistakes and misconceptions, and cannot grasp new concepts. You know why? Because it does not work.

 

Please, please tell me you're saying you're blaming your Su27 losses on RWR differences. Please.

Edited June 15, 2017 by AbortedMan

[Frostie]

You're telling me that being lower than a Mirage is the disadvantagous position to be in and I'm the one that doesn't know squat about flying the Su27? This is probably why you think the 530D is some sort of ultra-missile. Do some research before you start throwing that trash around.

 

The fact is I got my peepee slapped real hard when using the Su27 multiple times so I went to other servers and practiced against human opponents until I consistently survived and got kills with every available weapon system reliably. Then I did it all again with a wingman. You know what? It worked.

 

What I did not do is run to the server's forum thread and try to change the mission rule set to cater to my shortcomings as a person who cannot have some introspective criticism, cannot learn from their mistakes and misconceptions, and cannot grasp new concepts. You know why? Because it does not work.

 

Please, please tell me you're saying you're blaming your Su27 losses on RWR differences. Please.

 

You seem to think i'm on some hiding to nothing flying the Flanker, the purpose of this discussion is to get more Flankers in the air not to make it any easier for me personally. The reason less and less Flankers are being flown is because it is inferior. You won't accept that but instead claim they need to change tactics but haven't come up with any?

 

I've got to explain to you the difference between low and high missile fight, here?

You might as well go back to your 1v1 airquake because thats all its good for.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Frostie

[AbortedMan]

Haha I'm reading the previous posts and realizing that when I address and correct things like your misconceptions about radar/BVR differences you guys move the goal posts of the conversation to fit your argument and start talking about the issue being RWR SA instead of radar.

 

Do you think I'm trying to be better than you by proving you wrong or something? I could care less about that. I want everyone to be happy and have fun. I don't want people that can't handle their personal challenges to change it up for the rest of us that can.

[AbortedMan]

You seem to think i'm on some hiding to nothing flying the Flanker, the purpose of this discussion is to get more Flankers in the air not to make it any easier for me personally. The reason less and less Flankers are being flown is because it is inferior. You won't accept that but instead claim they need to change tactics but haven't come up with any?

 

I've got to explain to you the difference between low and high missile fight, here?

You might as well go back to your 1v1 airquake because thats all its good for.

 

To get more Su27's in the air the Mirage needs to have it's fuel drained, slots reduced, and spawn pushed back. Problem solved.

 

I'm not here to give everyone a how-to, but when I see things like someone waiting until they're 2 miles away from their opponent in a head on engagement to turn after firing uncoordinated missile spam, get splashed by a single fired 530D, exclaim "530's are dumb" in chat, then promptly post on the BF thread about how it should all be changed it tends to need some attention and wrangling back to sanity.

[Frostie]

Haha I'm reading the previous posts and realizing that when I address and correct things like your misconceptions about radar/BVR differences you guys move the goal posts of the conversation to fit your argument and start talking about the issue being RWR SA instead of radar.

 

Do you think I'm trying to be better than you by proving you wrong or something? I could care less about that. I want everyone to be happy and have fun. I don't want people that can't handle their personal challenges to change it up for the rest of us that can.

 

It's pretty simple then prove your case by describing the magic Flanker tactic that puts it on equal footing.

No smoke with pointless radar ranges 10 times the actual missile effectiveness, magic eos and rwr.

[Frostie]

To get more Su27's in the air the Mirage needs to have it's fuel drained, slots reduced, and spawn pushed back. Problem solved.

 

I'm not here to give everyone a how-to, but when I see things like someone waiting until they're 2 miles away from their opponent in a head on engagement to turn after firing uncoordinated missile spam, get splashed by a single fired 530D, exclaim "530's are dumb" in chat, then promptly post on the BF thread about how it should all be changed it tends to need some attention and wrangling back to sanity.

 

From my understanding you saw that through GCI so had no idea what happened, it was probably a serious degradation of SA for the Flanker pilot from being low. Case in proof.

[AbortedMan]

From my understanding you saw that through GCI so had no idea what happened, it was probably a serious degradation of SA for the Flanker pilot from being low. Case in proof.

 

I'd say it was a serious degradation of expectations of what successful tactics are. Are you going to base the discussion on this on "probablys" now?

 

Why is it so hard to believe that someone effed up in combat, got mad, and tried to vent by deferring the error on the design of the game? Have you never online gamed before?? This is the Internet we're dealing with.

[AbortedMan]

It's pretty simple then prove your case by describing the magic Flanker tactic that puts it on equal footing.

No smoke with pointless radar ranges 10 times the actual missile effectiveness, magic eos and rwr.

 

You and I both know what ever I say you're going to pick apart, critique heavily, deny and/or just plain not believe...come on now.

 

Also, "actual missile effectiveness" coming from you seems to be an extremely subjective term, so I don't think we can get anywhere close to agreeing on that. You do you, though. Keep workin' at it in the Su27, it might work out some day.

 

EDIT: I can tell you shouldn't be demanding anything about balance on Blue Flag just by the tone of this post. The purpose of the Su27, or any fighter on Blue Flag, is to protect the ground attack assets and hold off air threats for long enough for the attackers to get their mission completed. It's not even about getting kills in first place...why are you all so focused on this??

 

You've clearly lost sight on why this server/mission exists and, again, trying to steer it into airquake/fighter, fighter, fighter gameplay territory.

Edited June 15, 2017 by AbortedMan

[Frostie]

You and I both know what ever I say you're going to pick apart, critique heavily, deny and/or just plain not believe...come on now.

 

So you don't have anything. This is because you're struggling to find an effective advantage for the Flanker.

 

I think I nailed your idea of Flanker tactic on the head, fly around in the weeds and wait for something to crop up, is that becoming of team play or airquake?

Edited June 15, 2017 by Frostie

[Frostie]

I'd say it was a serious degradation of expectations of what successful tactics are. Are you going to base the discussion on this on "probablys" now?

 

Why is it so hard to believe that someone effed up in combat, got mad, and tried to vent by deferring the error on the design of the game? Have you never online gamed before?? This is the Internet we're dealing with.

 

The problem with this is it's not one guy suggesting change is it?

[Frostie]

Also, "actual missile effectiveness" coming from you seems to be an extremely subjective term, so I don't think we can get anywhere close to agreeing on that. You do you, though. Keep workin' at it in the Su27, it might work out some day.

 

So facts, tacviews and numbers are subjective?

 

I'll keep working on the Su27 don't worry like I said the issue is not myself. I remember splashing your Mirage many times can't say I noticed the reverse happening though.

[Ciribob]

As I said last night - DL - it's not happening without further testing internally. That requires time which is limited until Sunday at the earliest.

 

Spent two hours sorting out Farps and chopper loadouts last night instead as that's a bit more important as helicopters couldn't rearm or refuel.

 

BF is currently almost lag free compared to how it used to be, we don't want to jeopardise this as otherwise everyone loses.

 

So far for multiplayer - DL is only enabled​ when there is a EWR with its EWR task or an Awacs.

 

Awacs is out - lag, radio spam and spawning are all issues so that's a no go.

 

Ground radar - gives RED a working AI GCI as well as DL, but not BLUE which is unfair and possibly causes lag as well.

 

DL is not disabled - it just doesn't work in multiplayer without one of the two units above.

 

If you have more info on DL in *multiplayer* - please point me to it as we need more info in a PM

 

Client aircraft in the same group is also out as that'll break all radio commands and messages.

 

Hopefully you can see we're not just being dicks, trying to nerf anything or favour Blue ( I usually fly Red) - we're just trying to keep everything working well. Putting this together and keeping it running is an incredible amount of work and requires a lot of research.

 

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[VentZer0]

Ground radar - gives RED a working AI GCI as well as DL, but not BLUE which is unfair and possibly causes lag as well.

 

Negative, it actually does give you that I tested it yesterday and it works in alle FC3 aircraft for both sides, only the mirage doesnt get bullseye calls, but I guess that is because of wrong radio freq.

 

A Ukraine EWR 1L13 on blue as ground radar will give calls out. It seems to be necessary to be a ukraine unit!

[AbortedMan]

So facts, tacviews and numbers are subjective?

 

I'll keep working on the Su27 don't worry like I said the issue is not myself. I remember splashing your Mirage many times can't say I noticed the reverse happening though.

 

Sooooo...you are getting kills without DataLink?:doh:

 

Haha compelling testimony to your cause. I hope you find a server running a mission you enjoy some day.

Edited June 15, 2017 by AbortedMan

[AbortedMan]

As I said last night - DL - it's not happening without further testing internally. That requires time which is limited until Sunday at the earliest.

 

Spent two hours sorting out Farps and chopper loadouts last night instead as that's a bit more important as helicopters couldn't rearm or refuel.

 

BF is currently almost lag free compared to how it used to be, we don't want to jeopardise this as otherwise everyone loses.

 

So far for multiplayer - DL is only enabled​ when there is a EWR with its EWR task or an Awacs.

 

Awacs is out - lag, radio spam and spawning are all issues so that's a no go.

 

Ground radar - gives RED a working AI GCI as well as DL, but not BLUE which is unfair and possibly causes lag as well.

 

DL is not disabled - it just doesn't work in multiplayer without one of the two units above.

 

If you have more info on DL in *multiplayer* - please point me to it as we need more info in a PM

 

Client aircraft in the same group is also out as that'll break all radio commands and messages.

 

Hopefully you can see we're not just being dicks, trying to nerf anything or favour Blue ( I usually fly Red) - we're just trying to keep everything working well. Putting this together and keeping it running is an incredible amount of work and requires a lot of research.

 

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

 

Thanks a ton for taking the time to edit the Huey loadouts and adding FARPs. It's greatly appreciated.

 

I hope you know that it's not everyone that thinks red is nerfed...my group and I just flew red for two months straight and enjoyed it with no glaring issues (before the Mirage infestation started). Trying Blue again now to change it up and giving a few of ours a chance to buy/try the Gazelle.

[Frostie]

Sooooo...you are getting kills without DataLink?:doh:

 

Haha compelling testimony to your cause. I hope you find a server running a mission you enjoy some day.

 

Please stop with the strawman.

 

The topic is how to make the Su27 more of a viable option and get away from the Mirage v Mirage situation.

 

I enjoy blueflag immensely but only because I enjoy flying strike aircraft and helis. The Flanker is a chore before a challenge.

[Aries]

A big hi to the Warthog threesome that opened the gates of hell on the west coast last night...

 

:thumbup:

 

My track replay is garbled, so if yours works please send a link on PM... THX!!!

[microvax]

Sooooo...you are getting kills without DataLink?:doh:

 

Haha compelling testimony to your cause. I hope you find a server running a mission you enjoy some day.

 

Honestly, I am following this discussion for the last days now and I think you are really not getting the memo.

 

Getting kills is not a reasonable metric to decide balance on, warthunder does that with their ranking system. That did lead to FW190a4 [mid 1942 aircraft] being matched against p51d25s [late 1944 aircraft], because the playerbase of american aircraft was statistically just plain worse and the P51d is not as forgiving as the 190a in some respects. On equal pilot skill that didnt make sense at all though in terms of objective performance and a P51d25 will outclass a 190a4 no problem.

 

The same goes for the current Mirage vs Flanker situation. A good pilot will put up a fight in any frame. But bad pilots dying in m2ks to flankers is not a valid reason to call the situation balanced.

 

 

Objectively the M2K against a flanker can stay offensive 24/7 due to way better effective range in terms of missiles, can disengage basically at will until beeing pretty damn close, can run from a flanker and can catch a flanker, can head on basically deny any successful FOX2 employment with full dry thrust, I dunno what the flanker is really supposed to do in its role as a air superiority platform, it just gets outclassed hardcore.

In the merge the Flanker kinda gets the upper hand overall in performance but its not even there that the M2K is at an as massive disadvantage against the Flanker as the Flanker is against a Mirage overall before the merge.

 

The F15 overall is also less scary then a Mirage, but that thing outperforms the Mirage slightly in some things flight performance wise, in certain situations the AIM7 can rival the 530, the AIM9 is sneaky AF due to its smokeless motor. And overall I would say F15 vs M2K is kinda cool due to the F15 just carrying twice the armament overall.

 

There is no real way to give the Flanker an more effective offensive armament though, which will be a legid counter to the Mirage. The R27ET is just a meme in terms of CCM. Bind the flare button, use it, tada R27T series just completely denied while being offensive. The F15 will probably suffer more then the M2K. So even more motivation to fly the flying illuminati death laser rocket punch toyota 2000 plug in hybrid.

 

R27ER as said before will probably overpower the flanker objectively speaking.

 

Datalink will give the Flanker actually something unique which is helping it to perform its role as an air superiority platform. While it doesn't help its weapon systems, it helps both survivability and overall employment options. And due to the R27 series being flying airbrakes even a jumped f15 or Mirage will be able to defend, but they will probably be forced defensive/cold.

Which is something the Flanker cant really do atm and which would help probably making it a more competitive option overall.

 

Moving the M2k slots further back wont help, it can cover distances at 20NM a minute pretty efficiently if one uses it correctly.

What really might make the fc3 planes a more interesting option is giving them fuel and the Mirages no fuel. Or give all aircrafts full fuel.

Technically having the FC3 birds having higher readyness over an interceptor doesn't make sense but technically the r27 and aim7 should also substantially outrange the 530d so yeah.

We should probably go with what makes sense based on what is the case in DCS instead of what might be realistic because realism with the missiles is just broken straight away so realism does not really work with anything connected to the effectiveness of these weapon systems.

 

And this is my point of view as a M2K driver by heart.

 

And you should probably listen to Frostie in regards to the Flanker, he is an exceptional Flanker driver and usually knows what he is talking about. ;P

[Tj1376]

Thanks a ton for taking the time to edit the Huey loadouts and adding FARPs. It's greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

I hope you know that it's not everyone that thinks red is nerfed...my group and I just flew red for two months straight and enjoyed it with no glaring issues (before the Mirage infestation started). Trying Blue again now to change it up and giving a few of ours a chance to buy/try the Gazelle.

 

 

 

Wait. You all flew su27 for two nights and then everyone bought the Mirage. I know this, I was flying every night with you learning the Viggen. Pand has his struggles with the su27 documented on Twitch...

 

Hmmmm....

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tj1376]

As I said last night - DL - it's not happening without further testing internally. That requires time which is limited until Sunday at the earliest.

 

Ground radar - gives RED a working AI GCI as well as DL, but not BLUE which is unfair and possibly causes lag as well.

 

DL is not disabled - it just doesn't work in multiplayer without one of the two units above.

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

 

 

I don't think any red would mind if blue also got GCI call outs via ground based radar. Or if awacs was up for both teams.

 

TJ

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ciribob]

I don't think any red would mind if blue also got GCI call outs via ground based radar. Or if awacs was up for both teams.

 

TJ

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

By editing the quote you missed the two points or i wasn't clear enough :)

 

AWACS - Not going to be feasible for now due to spawning issues (where to spawn and respawn) and lag issues, plus spammy calls over radio. Forget AWACS :)

 

Ground Based Radar - Works for RED but not yet proven to work for ALL Blue Airframes including F15 & other Hi fidelity aircraft in Multiplayer for clients, not just the Host.

 

As I said - It requires internal testing and more info before we can make a call on it - Which wont be till Sunday at the earliest so please be patient with us :)

 

VentZer0 - Sent me a PM and has tested F15 on Blue with ground radar in single player, which didnt used to work. That is promising, as it used to be hardcoded to not work in DCS but the test is, as I said - All fighter Airframes, for Blue, as Clients in multiplayer, with no lag / rubber banding working with Ground Radar.

 

If it doesnt work then RED get Datalink plus AI GCI and BLUE get partial AI GCI which isn't really workable.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Ciribob

[M0ltar]

As I said last night - DL - it's not happening without further testing internally. That requires time which is limited until Sunday at the earliest.

 

Spent two hours sorting out Farps and chopper loadouts last night instead as that's a bit more important as helicopters couldn't rearm or refuel.

 

BF is currently almost lag free compared to how it used to be, we don't want to jeopardise this as otherwise everyone loses.

 

So far for multiplayer - DL is only enabled​ when there is a EWR with its EWR task or an Awacs.

 

Awacs is out - lag, radio spam and spawning are all issues so that's a no go.

 

Ground radar - gives RED a working AI GCI as well as DL, but not BLUE which is unfair and possibly causes lag as well.

 

DL is not disabled - it just doesn't work in multiplayer without one of the two units above.

 

If you have more info on DL in *multiplayer* - please point me to it as we need more info in a PM

 

Client aircraft in the same group is also out as that'll break all radio commands and messages.

 

Hopefully you can see we're not just being dicks, trying to nerf anything or favour Blue ( I usually fly Red) - we're just trying to keep everything working well. Putting this together and keeping it running is an incredible amount of work and requires a lot of research.

 

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

As ventzero said, blue can ha EA the awacs as well by giving them a Ukrainian sided version of the same ground radar. We tested this when DL was working in the server and we found out blue didn't have awacs.

 

Awacs spam o know can be annoying, but for anyone that doesn't know, you can change the radio message filters using right shift+m in game.

 

We all know this is going to take testing and I don't think anyone is suggesting that this needs o happen right now. I simply think people want it on the table for discussion and hopefully eventually things are tested.

 

Thanks again for being transparent about everything whether its favorable or not to this. I really mean that.

[Ciribob]

As ventzero said, blue can ha EA the awacs as well by giving them a Ukrainian sided version of the same ground radar. We tested this when DL was working in the server and we found out blue didn't have awacs.

 

Awacs spam o know can be annoying, but for anyone that doesn't know, you can change the radio message filters using right shift+m in game.

 

We all know this is going to take testing and I don't think anyone is suggesting that this needs o happen right now. I simply think people want it on the table for discussion and hopefully eventually things are tested.

 

Thanks again for being transparent about everything whether its favorable or not to this. I really mean that.

 

Think posts crossed over so please see previous post by me :thumbup:

 

No AWACS anytime soon. Sorry.

[M0ltar]

Think posts crossed over so please see previous post by me

 

No AWACS anytime soon. Sorry.

Yeah, I went back and read it after I posted. I know there is testing and things before this even gets put into testing, if it even does. I dont think anyone is in a rush and no one expects anything soon or at all.

Edited June 15, 2017 by M0ltar