How to spot bandits with labels OFF??

[Hammerhead]

I was wondering how the heck you can spot enemy planes visually with the F-15C when labels are turned off, model enlargement is off, external cockpit view is off, padlocking is off? I feel like such a lousy noob in this plane (used to the A-10C flying geriatric missions for blind people). I attempted the Blue Flag server a few times but my lifetime is like 5min in the air after which I just exit the server because if I wanted to die-respawn-die-respawn-die-respawn, I can play call of duty.

I know dogfighting is really hard (that's why they call it that way, they are mean, vicious, agressive fights) but my bandits on screen are like 1 single pixel large for crying out loud! Combine that with cockpit scratches and light reflections etc and you have no chance in keeping the target in sight, let be if you have multiple bandits. So how do pro's like you guys keep situational awareness? Never mind the hackers, I want to win fair! On one occasion on the Blue Flag server there was this Mig-29 that took me out head on with guns during a freakin' night mission while I didn't even get the chance to hit him with my amraam!! WTF??!!

PS: I did read the F-15C Combat Guide by Sryan which was really informative but it doesn't help at all with spotting enemies around you.

[pr1malr8ge]

I was wondering how the heck you can spot enemy planes visually with the F-15C when labels are turned off, model enlargement is off, external cockpit view is off, padlocking is off? I feel like such a lousy noob in this plane (used to the A-10C flying geriatric missions for blind people). I attempted the Blue Flag server a few times but my lifetime is like 5min in the air after which I just exit the server because if I wanted to die-respawn-die-respawn-die-respawn, I can play call of duty.

I know dogfighting is really hard (that's why they call it that way, they are mean, vicious, agressive fights) but my bandits on screen are like 1 single pixel large for crying out loud! Combine that with cockpit scratches and light reflections etc and you have no chance in keeping the target in sight, let be if you have multiple bandits. So how do pro's like you guys keep situational awareness? Never mind the hackers, I want to win fair! On one occasion on the Blue Flag server there was this Mig-29 that took me out head on with guns during a freakin' night mission while I didn't even get the chance to hit him with my amraam!! WTF??!!

PS: I did read the F-15C Combat Guide by Sryan which was really informative but it doesn't help at all with spotting enemies around you.

 

 

If you have a hotas that has a slider on it. [like the TM Warthog] you can bind that slider for zoom view. If you think you might know where an enemy is you can zoom using the slider to the general area and scan hopefully seeing them.

 

So the basics of locating an enemy is looking for smoke/con trails. After burner[at night].

 

Then you have the use of your radar to give you a general location on where to look then zoom your view in that area and hope you see it.

 

I've watched a few youtube vids where I've seen them pick someone out and I was like WTF how did he ever pick that up.. Maybe the recorded quality isn't as good as looking at your own screen in game..

 

 

Now, when in an actual turning fight with a bandit and in close range where needing zoom isn't needed to see them. This is where S/A comes into play. Knowing what your foe is doing and predicting what they are about to do to where you can go heads down into the hud/cockpit then going back heads up and knowing exactly where you should be looking takes practice......

 

P.S. This is taking into account that you are using some kindof head tracking for "free" look. With out that good luck with trying to keep S/A

Edited November 1, 2016 by pr1malr8ge

[sea2sky]

Before you go to MP, try to practice target spotting in a single player. Don't use stock missions, they are dumb sometimes. Create a mission, place enemy AC's at a certain distance from yours, know the general direction to them. It takes time to get used to. First, while in the long range use the radar for a short amount of time. Then, turn off the radar once you know where to go. And then while getting closer to the possible target - use max zoom and scan the area with your eyes.

[Hammerhead]

Thanks for the advise. Any more tips are greatly appreciated. But I think it now boils down to practise practise practise since I am already doing most of what you say. I am using the Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar with the ANT ELEV rotary set to the zoom axis. I totally agree that trackIR is absolutely indispensable. I did try single player missions as well to eliminate the possibility of lag but I will try to set up my own mission in the editor. Any way I can add another F-15C as my adversary? I can't seem to select it from the opposing factions. Just so that it boils down to pilot skills only and not the airframe. I am also using Tacview to analyse my dogfights afterwards. But it's a hell of a challenge to find out what I could have done differently or to learn from the enemy AI. And once they get on my tail (esp. Mig-29 or Su-27), all is practically lost. It seems as though the F-15C cannot outmaneuver them and I find myself saying "come on, turn turn turn you lazy beast!". Pulling 9g at 500kts and the bandit sticks to my tail as if it's doing a formation flight. I bet in real life, one of the two would sooner or later loose it. The pilot is the weakest link in modern fighters. In DCS your screen gets black but that's not a problem for the AI on my tail apparently.

[probad]

trackir doesnt make you spot targets any easier, all it does is make it a little easier to keep eyes on a guy after you have spotted him. basically, dont expect it to give you magical eagle vision.

 

ai makes for poor bfm practice, ai flight model doesnt obey the more detailed physics of player aircraft. that said though trying to fly the turn game against the flanker regardless if it's ai, mp, or irl, is a nonstarter.

[GGTharos]

In real life, you'd get yelled at for not knowing what you're doing ;)

 

Even 9g at 500kts is a huge turn circle is so huge, another plane can sit behind you in a comfy 400-450kts and keep the pipper on you all day long.

 

But it's a hell of a challenge to find out what I could have done differently or to learn from the enemy AI. And once they get on my tail (esp. Mig-29 or Su-27), all is practically lost. It seems as though the F-15C cannot outmaneuver them and I find myself saying "come on, turn turn turn you lazy beast!". Pulling 9g at 500kts and the bandit sticks to my tail as if it's doing a formation flight. I bet in real life, one of the two would sooner or later loose it. The pilot is the weakest link in modern fighters. In DCS your screen gets black but that's not a problem for the AI on my tail apparently.

[Bewsher]

Thanks for the advise. Any more tips are greatly appreciated. But I think it now boils down to practise practise practise since I am already doing most of what you say. I am using the Thrustmaster HOTAS Cougar with the ANT ELEV rotary set to the zoom axis. I totally agree that trackIR is absolutely indispensable. I did try single player missions as well to eliminate the possibility of lag but I will try to set up my own mission in the editor. Any way I can add another F-15C as my adversary? I can't seem to select it from the opposing factions. Just so that it boils down to pilot skills only and not the airframe. I am also using Tacview to analyse my dogfights afterwards. But it's a hell of a challenge to find out what I could have done differently or to learn from the enemy AI. And once they get on my tail (esp. Mig-29 or Su-27), all is practically lost. It seems as though the F-15C cannot outmaneuver them and I find myself saying "come on, turn turn turn you lazy beast!". Pulling 9g at 500kts and the bandit sticks to my tail as if it's doing a formation flight. I bet in real life, one of the two would sooner or later loose it. The pilot is the weakest link in modern fighters. In DCS your screen gets black but that's not a problem for the AI on my tail apparently.

If you're using Openbeta 1.5 use this lua to place a F-15C on the opposing Ukrainian side.

 

Dont know if it'll affect online play. But as a single one on one itll work.

 

Just Select the F-15C as US and the opposing F-15C as Ukrainian.

 

Any future updates will erase this though.

 

 

 

Update

 

No need to use this mod as Imp has the proper way to do it.

 

Original lua is below.

 

Place in the Scripts/Database directory.

db_countries.lua

Edited November 2, 2016 by Bewsher
Not a necessary mod

[Le_Jaguar]

in BVR, use the radar to find enemies.

[lmp]

If you're using Openbeta 1.5 use this lua to place a F-15C on the opposing Ukrainian side.

 

Simpler and less invasive option - in the ME create a new mission and in the Coalition dialog move one of the F-15 flying countries (Israel, USAF Aggressors...) to the Red coalition. No need to mess with the game files.

[Bewsher]

Good point and no need to worry about file issues. To anybody who downloaded the modded file the unedited file is above.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Bewsher

[Stuge]

Visual spotting is hard.

 

Even a spotted target can easily be lost due to inattention, bad lighting (the sun!) or too much distance. Small fighters are hardest to track.

 

Just throw away your expectations, and keep practicing. Set up a mission against an AI plane, guns only, find it with radar if necessary, merge with it, and learn to keep sight.

[GGTharos]

Even a spotted target can easily be lost due to people desperately wanting to look at their HuD for all those little numbers

 

FTFY.

[Hammerhead]

In real life, you'd get yelled at for not knowing what you're doing ;)

 

Even 9g at 500kts is a huge turn circle is so huge, another plane can sit behind you in a comfy 400-450kts and keep the pipper on you all day long.

 

You're right:) I did not want to go into too much detail but what I meant was actually starting the maneuver at 500kts and then pull 9g and let airspeed bleed off to increase not only your turn rate but also turn radius hoping that I could shake off the bandit. But nope, he sticks to my tail. See exerpt from the manual in attachment with a chart about the turn rate, turn radius in function of load factor and airspeed. I did do some studying as you may see from the handwritten notes so I'm not completely ignorant:smartass:

 

@Bewsher @lmp thanks for the tip about adding an F-15C to the opposing Ukrainian or Israeli faction, this worked!

 

Spotting targets with the radar is not really an issue for me even though this may also be a challenge to keep situational awareness if you have multiple bandits. It's keeping a visual on them and more importantly identify them as friendly or bandit that is such a pain, even if I'm looking outside all the time and neglect the HUD. I mean, loose sight, loose the fight, right? On several occasions I found myself following my own AI wingman until coming within guns range and then I realised oh crap, that looks like an F-15 so then where did the bandit go:doh:.

In real life I have no difficulty at all spotting other airplanes (I'm an airline pilot - yeay, three cheers and now get lost with the sound of a toilet flush in the background:P). But this monitor-TrackIR business just feels so unnatural. I wonder why they call it Natural Point TrackIR, they should call it Unnatural-stiff-neck-pop-your-eyeballs-out TrackIR:megalol:

[Stuge]

FTFY.

 

Thx, appreciate it :)

 

More tips:

Revert back to CRT monitor ;);)

Revert back to hat switch.

Revert back to a pre-1.5 version of DCS.

[riproren]

I've struggled with the same issue of not easily spotting bogeys. One thing that has helped me is flying the "Aggressors" Quick Mission in 2.0. The fight basically takes place in a valley and the AI tend to stay in there. It allows me to keep my head out of the HUD and focus on SA.

As for the AI wingman, they are nothing but bait in this mission. They never merge, engage, or fire a shot. I'll fly above him and wait for the AI to get on his 6 and then roll in for the shot.

[Capn kamikaze]

Main thing is use your sensors, and build a good SA picture, and if you're close enough use vertical scan mode, and roll and point it in their general area, the vertical scan mode is vertical relative to your aircraft, not relative to the ground, so if you roll over 90 degrees it is rolled over 90 degrees, if you had good SA then you should know roughly where to point it, and it should lock.

[probad]

for the last half year the f-15 vertical scan has been beyond unreliable, waiting for it to lock will kill you. it's literally faster to manually lock in rws, and barring that, boresight an aim-9.

Edited November 3, 2016 by probad

[Cik]

visual spotting in DCS is unrealistically poor

 

if you are having trouble with it, you are in the club of everyone who plays this game who isn't using telescopic eyezoom cheats tbh

[Baz000]

I think it has to do with LOD draw distance? Or how its rendered... Good luck trying to spot a bandit or a incoming missile that is just within visual range of you

[Cik]

in DCS planes actually literally vanish out of existence sometimes even before ~1/2 of actual visual range and also blend into the terrain/sky/whatever. who knows why.

 

there's also no cockpit glint or anything like that modeled. exactly why this is still an issue after over a decade who knows. personally i think it's because this community always makes excuses for ED.

 

every other sim of note has had visual spotting fixed up to realistic standards for like a decade now. the solution is freely available (literally)

 

visual spotting is a core principle and requirement of flight sims, so all these "just use vertical scan lul" miss the point entirely. furthermore it's STILL A PROBLEM even after ED have added tons of platforms (and plan to add more) that 100% require it because they have very old or nonexistent radars.

 

i barely fly A/A in DCS for this reason, because WVR is basically just an exercise in VSCAN mash lock until you find him and then shoot

 

if you don't believe me that it's this bad, get in a mig21 and make a high speed merge vs. an f-5. you will start your turn out of the merge while looking at him and he will literally vanish.

[pr1malr8ge]

in DCS planes actually literally vanish out of existence sometimes even before ~1/2 of actual visual range and also blend into the terrain/sky/whatever. who knows why.

 

there's also no cockpit glint or anything like that modeled. exactly why this is still an issue after over a decade who knows. personally i think it's because this community always makes excuses for ED.

 

every other sim of note has had visual spotting fixed up to realistic standards for like a decade now. the solution is freely available (literally)

 

visual spotting is a core principle and requirement of flight sims, so all these "just use vertical scan lul" miss the point entirely. furthermore it's STILL A PROBLEM even after ED have added tons of platforms (and plan to add more) that 100% require it because they have very old or nonexistent radars.

 

i barely fly A/A in DCS for this reason, because WVR is basically just an exercise in VSCAN mash lock until you find him and then shoot

 

if you don't believe me that it's this bad, get in a mig21 and make a high speed merge vs. an f-5. you will start your turn out of the merge while looking at him and he will literally vanish.

 

The issue with this "free" fix you mentioned. Is that it was implemented into DCS and the community rejected it.. Mainly because it's a "hack" sort of speak. It involves using a sprite draw to make it bigger in the screen. So by al intensive purposes for distance the sprite will be the size of a house compared to it's background. While you can see a target now you can't judge distance. It just does not look realistic. Hense why it was removed.

 

as far as loosing visual during a merge in the mig21.. well it isn't exactly suited for "dog" fighting compared to newer aircraft..

[pr1malr8ge]

trackir doesnt make you spot targets any easier, all it does is make it a little easier to keep eyes on a guy after you have spotted him. basically, dont expect it to give you magical eagle vision.

 

 

I'd have to argue that it does make it easier to spot targets. It allows you to scan more area in a shorter amount of time. It also allows you to get different viewing angles that you can't get with out it.

 

It's as you said not a magical eagle vision but it's not a slight step compared to using a fixed look.

[Capn kamikaze]

for the last half year the f-15 vertical scan has been beyond unreliable, waiting for it to lock will kill you. it's literally faster to manually lock in rws, and barring that, boresight an aim-9.

 

Not had any issues with myself.

[Capn kamikaze]

...so all these "just use vertical scan lul" miss the point entirely.

 

Actually I think you missed the point, and that is that you should build up a good SA picture before you even get in to dogfighting range and then use your ACM modes to help you.

[ekg]

Spotting is not easy in real life too, you know. Fly a few circuits and you'll see that it can be tricky to find / track C-172s that are less than 1km out.