The Détecteur de Départ Missile (DDM)

[Darkwolf]

I thing the debate here is not about DDM or not DDM.

 

It's about "full accuracy" or "allowing what-if things"

 

Then shall we can start debating again missiles loadout on soviet aircrafts ? I'd be happy to get back the R-27EA from lockon :D S-24 on Mi-8 should be great too :)

[ViFF]

Just an aclaration. I never said that down visibility is bad. It is obvious that the D2M was designed to detect MANPADs so perfect down visibility is a must. I said that there is a blind spot at the rear due to sensor placement.

 

The C can use it but it has never been fitted with one, probably due to two reasons:

 

1. The C is mainly an interceptor and France has always had dedicated attack aircraft like the Jaguar.

2. To keep costs down.

 

The D carries it but then the D is a strike aircraft.

 

Zeus loves the community, really. If I were in his place I would have kept some of the tech to be available only on the Mirage 2000D, which if they do end up doing will be a day 1 purchase for me :D

 

But don't get me wrong, I am very happy for the C getting this tech.

 

I also think it was a very good decision to make it a selectable option to have or not.

 

Just one small question: will the option be in the arming on the ramp or only in the mission editor?

 

S! and thank you for all the work you are doing.

 

:pilotfly:

[Gliptal]

I like how for most people the problem is they're lawn risks getting slightly spoiled by a debatable minor advantage in PvP airquake.

[Tilly-B]

It would be a game changer. I have score many kills in MP against M2K with sneaking behind it and launch T/ET in Su or MiG. Now with this DDM, 27 or 29 drivers should work little bit hard.

In an unrestricted server where ER/AIM 120 are allowed its not really an issue but not in restricted server like in BF when Amraam or ER and ET aren't allowed. Face head on against uber Matra is mostly suicide.

 

 

If you've already got the drop by sneaking up behind the mirage, i dont think he'll have sufficient time to react to the missile launch anyway

 

Now what people haven't mentioned (or maybe they have; I didn't read ALL the pages) is, could this D2M system combine with the automatic countermeasures release, which is semi functional in the game right now?

 

This would mean that the D2M would warn the pilot of the missile release, switch to a flare heavy countermeasure mode, and dispense automatically!

[Oceandar]

If you've already got the drop by sneaking up behind the mirage, i dont think he'll have sufficient time to react to the missile launch anyway

 

Now what people haven't mentioned (or maybe they have; I didn't read ALL the pages) is, could this D2M system combine with the automatic countermeasures release, which is semi functional in the game right now?

 

This would mean that the D2M would warn the pilot of the missile release, switch to a flare heavy countermeasure mode, and dispense automatically!

Lets just wait and see how it goes after the system implemented. But any new ability to the platform should give the advantage, don't you think ?

 

Cheers

Edited November 27, 2016 by Oceandar

[Azrayen]

I wouldn't like this if this was a feature the chasseur wasn't ready for from factory. But at the end of the day it looks like a logistic decision or military organisation. They didn't strike in the chasseur, okay, so be it. The plane was ready for it, and having all the capabilities, the operator decides.

 

This is not like bringing the Mica and magically make it work with a plane that never was ready for it. It is a loadout choice that in reality didn't happen not because the plane could not, but because France did not want to do it that way.

^^ this :thumbup:

 

So again, to me it's a mere loadout argument. If you don't like it? Don't load it on your pylons but then, don't do CAS or air strikes on the C because if we are roleplaying the french air force please be serious.

To be fair, they do in Sahel for the past years. And actually it's a good example: no serious manpads threat there, no DDM mounted. OTOH, NVGs needed, let's carry them (after having re-vamped the entire cockpit lighting so it's compatible, which we don't have in DCS).

 

 

Unfortunately the Mirage has its own version of how missiles should behave which exceeds EDs version therefore creating its own playing field.

I'm all for a general quality control, and my understanding is that ED actually does that for sensitive areas.

Your point about the French missiles is really out of sync: ED versions were crap (for lack of attention, to the point of being ridiculous), and Razbam versions are according to what little we know of real specs. Not really a bickering point here, IMO ;)

(if other missiles need upgrade, that's up to their dev to make it ASAP; I really don't like the idea of asking Razbam to underpower their missiles because other are (seem?) underpowered at the moment)

[ZHeN]

I wouldn't like this if this was a feature the chasseur wasn't ready for from factory. But at the end of the day it looks like a logistic decision or military organisation. They didn't strike in the chasseur, okay, so be it. The plane was ready for it, and having all the capabilities, the operator decides.

 

This is not like bringing the Mica and magically make it work with a plane that never was ready for it. It is a loadout choice that in reality didn't happen not because the plane could not, but because France did not want to do it that way.

 

^^ this :thumbup:

I don't get it

Why are you guys keeping ignoring this ?

 

Just to make things clear...

 

The button on ECM panel and led light on RWR display prove nothing. It has been there since the very beginning even before the "SAMIR" DDM has been designed.

The matter didn't move forward until France lost a Mirage 2000N in Bosnia in 1995, probably shot down by MANPAD.

 

It isn't plug & play, Mirage 2000N needed an upgrade to be able to use it.

 

Razbam decided to make it optional on Mirage 2000C so be it. There is no way to please everyone.

Edited November 28, 2016 by ZHeN

[Whisper]

As long as it's an ME option, thanks to Zeus hard work, there is no problem, certainly nothing to warrant 10 pages of rants, to which I add my own ... :P

 

@everyone : please, re-read from the beginning, it's bordering ridiculous.

Zeus announces the feature, someone ask if it could be a ME option, and BOOM, tons of rants appear.

An ME option, is it THAT hard to accept??? oO

[Zeus67]

Okay. somebody was kind enough to send me a copy of the 3428 1990 issue of FlightGlobal magazine where they detail a little bit more about the DDM:

 

SAT

Bispectral infra-red missile detector variously described as having 360º coverage in azimuth or 180º in azimuth and 80º in elevation. System weight reported to be 45Kg. Intended for the French Air Force (Mirage 2000 aircraft in conjunction with the Spirale dispenser) which has succesfully tested the device. ITT is negotiating US rights for the system which is being offered to USAF to meet its tactical MAWS requirement.

Link:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1990/1990%20-%203428.html

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

So there's two different coverages said here. One saying 360 in azimuth or 180 azimuth with 80 of elevation. Doesn't really specify wither that's above or below, behind or in front.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[jojo]

So there's two different coverages said here. One saying 360 in azimuth or 180 azimuth with 80 of elevation. Doesn't really specify wither that's above or below, behind or in front.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

Each sensor has 180 degrees in azimuth, so 2 sensors provides 360 degrees coverage in azimuth.

 

Considering the shape of the sensor it probably +/- 40 degrees in elevation = 80 degrees.

[Zeus67]

So there's two different coverages said here. One saying 360 in azimuth or 180 azimuth with 80 of elevation. Doesn't really specify wither that's above or below, behind or in front.

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

 

I deduce that there are two sensor types: one with 360º coverage and another with 180º coverage (the one mounted on the Magic Pylons). What is not clear is if the 80º elevation applies to both or only to the 180.

[Schmidtfire]

Maybe the 360 degrees total coverage is achieved with 4 sensors? (1 sensor in back and 1 sensor in front of each Magic Pylon)

180 degrees - regular sensors on back. 360 degrees - 2 additional sensors on front part of pylon.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Schmidtfire

[zerO_crash]

I deduce that there are two sensor types: one with 360º coverage and another with 180º coverage (the one mounted on the Magic Pylons). What is not clear is if the 80º elevation applies to both or only to the 180.

 

They way it`s written, it mentions either 360, or 180 + 80. Reason is, no comma before "80", unless someone clumsy forgot it.

[Zeus67]

Maybe the 360 degrees total coverage is achieved with 4 sensors? (1 sensor in back and 1 sensor in front of each Magic Pylon)

180 degrees - regular sensors on back. 360 degrees - 2 additional sensors on front part of pylon.

 

All available images of Mirage 2000Ds using the system show them only in the rear of the Magic II pylons. None mounted elsewhere.

 

 

Available images of the system mounted in the Rafale show them in the top of the tail, one sensor on each side.

 

 

Interestingly enought the Rafale uses both spherical and squarish sensors:

 

 

So, by design it seems that the "sqarish" sensors are the ones limited to 80º degrees in elevation (+/- 40º) due to design restrictions.

 

This also creates a problem with the M-2000C. The Magic pylons that have the sensor are always covered by the wings (see the first image). so I wonder if the down vision is either 40º or closer to 60º. The use of prisms to force view angles is a possibility. What is certain is that it does not have the capability to look up because the wing acts as a huge umbrella.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Zeus67

[jojo]

The Rafale entered service with the SAMIR DDM, the same as the one fitted to Mirage 2000.

 

The coverage in azimuth is 2x180. So 2 sensors provides 360 coverage in azimuth.

The DDM itself has +/-40 coverage in elevation, but on Mirage the upward view is restricted by the wing.

 

The SAMIR DDM was later replaced by DDM NG (spherical) on Rafale. The new system has 360 degrees coverage both in azimuth and elevation, minus a mask from the Rafale airframe.

 

DDM NG one side view

http://www.mbda-systems.com/air-dominance/ddm-ng/

 

DDM is optional on Mirage 2000N/D but it comes standard with Rafale.

Edited November 28, 2016 by jojo

[T_A]

How did i miss this thread so far??

 

Great news Zeus, i for one would love to see this system in our M2K

[Robin_Hood]

The coverage in azimuth is 2x180. So 2 sensors provides 360 coverage in azimuth.

The DDM itself has +/-40 coverage in elevation, but on Mirage the upward view is restricted by the wing.

 

Do you mean something like this?

Edited April 25, 2017 by Robin_Hood

[Esac_mirmidon]

Nice diagram Robin.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Assuming that the article is correct I'd guess that Robin has the right idea. Though I would be skeptical about the forward looking ability. If 360 is 360 then there's possibly a larger uncovered area to the aircrafts rear

 

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[Azrayen]

@ Robin: you got it right :)

 

I don't get it

Why are you guys keeping ignoring this ?

 

Simple : I don't ignore it. On the contrary, I agree with jojo (and I also knew it before he posted). You may refer to my older posts about the matter FWIW (in other threads).

Nothing is really plug & play on aircraft from this generation.

 

This doesn't change how I feel about DCS implementation: as the N (which has ~same avionics level as the C) can have it, then just plug the plus, minus and data cables, apply the same upgrade on C's RWRs as was applied on Ns (by the way: same RWR device and antennas) and voilà.

[Schmidtfire]

That diagram looks great, very believable.

[Zeus67]

This is the option in the ME:

 

By default the DDM sensors will be mounted. You have to explicitly disallow them.

[Rlaxoxo]

This is the option in the ME:

 

By default the DDM sensors will be mounted. You have to explicitly disallow them.

 

This is nice

[Hook47]

Really excited to see this will be a feature!

 

Really good decision on the ME editor option. I enjoy realistic what if features like this, as DCS as a whole is a "what if" sandbox simulator, but recognize there are community members who do not want a feature like this. A mission editor options pleases all involved- good decision!

 

Thanks, Razbam... Looks like another Delta wing shall soon enter the fray, but the Mirage will always be one sexy beast

Edited November 29, 2016 by Hook47