** DCS: AJS-37 WIP Pre-Release Manual Released! **

[AdurianJ]

Did the live rockets and the Practice rockets use the same pod?

 

 

 

They use a different pod!

That's very clear if you read the "förarinstruktion" also if you ever see a picture of a pod with live rockets the pod is in mint condition.

 

 

But since the AJS module we are getting includes a fictional export option

there would be no reason the single option could not be included (If the same pods were used both Live and Practice Rockets).

 

 

 

What fictional export option?

Will the Viggen use all 9 pylons like the one offered to Australia ?

[AdurianJ]

@Leatherneck: I believe there's an error in the title of the figure 14 (page 31). It says "89% RPM" but the instrument shown in the picture reads 93%.

 

Another one, figure 16 (page 32). The title says "545°" but I read something like "449°" on the picture.

 

Also, figure 23 (page 36) : says "45km/4.5 Swedish miles", but I read 38km/3.8 Swedish miles.

 

Metric mile is a better word than Swedish mile because historically a Swedish mile is not the same as the metric one.

[AdurianJ]

This may seem random, but reading up on the BK-90 I have to admit I admire the Swedish mandate for a weapon that doesn't leave dangerous u exploded ordinance- I've spent a few years of my life in countries where children are maimed or killed years after the fact by submunitions. Seeing some of the injuries first hand, it is worth making the weapons avoid this type of tragedy- war is bad enough

 

As a side-note the pod was removed from service just because it was a cluster weapon.

The last examples being dismantled last year.

When it came down to it the anti military activists in this country didn't care about if it was safe or not. So the next time we buy cluster munitions we probably won't care as much because it made no difference !

[mattebubben]

They use a different pod!

That's very clear if you read the "förarinstruktion" also if you ever see a picture of a pod with live rockets the pod is in mint condition.

 

 

 

 

What fictional export option?

Will the Viggen use all 9 pylons like the one offered to Australia ?

 

The module will include Fictional Skins for the AJS 37 having it serve in other nations then just Sweden

(Un Historical / Fictional what if skins) this will most likely include both Existing and Fictional nations.

 

And they have Also stated that they will include the AGM 65B

 

(because they believed that it would possibly have been useable on the AJS 37 without any modification and that it would be more effective in game with its ZOOM capability due to the Limited Ingame Resolution that might make it harder to Find and Identify targets using the RB 75/EP-13 then it would IRL)

 

They will not make a Fictional Variant but they will add atleast 1 armament option that is non historical.

(that are added both for Gameplay value and as what if options either if the Swedish Airforce also decided to get them or in a Export Scenario).

 

So if it was Plausible for the Rocket pods to launch singles (but it was not done for Doctrine reasons) then they could likely have included a single option.

 

But as it seems that is not the case (if it was not something that could have been easily done) they maby its less likely they will add it.

(it was a long time they mentioned the chance of adding that ability so they might or might not have changed their minds since then)

Edited January 4, 2017 by mattebubben

[AdurianJ]

The module will include Fictional Skins for the AJS 37 having it serve in other nations then just Sweden

(Un Historical / Fictional what if skins) this will most likely include both Existing and Fictional nations.

 

And they have Also stated that they will include the AGM 65B

 

(because they believed that it would possibly have been useable on the AJS 37 without any modification and that it would be more effective in game with its ZOOM capability due to the Limited Ingame Resolution that might make it harder to Find and Identify targets using the RB 75/EP-13 then it would IRL)

 

They will not make a Fictional Variant but they will add atleast 1 armament option that is non historical.

(that are added both for Gameplay value and as what if options either if the Swedish Airforce also decided to get them or in a Export Scenario).

 

So if it was Plausible for the Rocket pods to launch singles (but it was not done for Doctrine reasons) then they could likely have included a single option.

 

But as it seems that is not the case (if it was not something that could have been easily done) they maby its less likely they will add it.

(it was a long time they mentioned the chance of adding that ability so they might or might not have changed their minds since then)

 

Hmm i took a closer look at the SFI AJS 37 del 1 kap 1 PDF Förarinstruktion.

On page 435 there's a weapons logic schematic for launching rockets and apparently you just set the launch impulse circuits in practice mode and it can fire singly.

The question then becomes if you can do this in the cockpit or not.

[Ice_Cougar]

The module will include Fictional Skins for the AJS 37 having it serve in other nations then just Sweden

(Un Historical / Fictional what if skins) this will most likely include both Existing and Fictional nations.

 

And they have Also stated that they will include the AGM 65B

 

(because they believed that it would possibly have been useable on the AJS 37 without any modification and that it would be more effective in game with its ZOOM capability due to the Limited Ingame Resolution that might make it harder to Find and Identify targets using the RB 75/EP-13 then it would IRL)

 

They will not make a Fictional Variant but they will add atleast 1 armament option that is non historical.

(that are added both for Gameplay value and as what if options either if the Swedish Airforce also decided to get them or in a Export Scenario).

 

Also, isn't the green maverick an RB-75T?

 

Okay...

1: Will the RB-75T be zoomable?

2: If we're talking about a possible non-historical armament option...what do you think it could be? (Possibly something hugely un-expected like a SEAD missile?)

[Goblin]

Hmm i took a closer look at the SFI AJS 37 del 1 kap 1 PDF Förarinstruktion.

On page 435 there's a weapons logic schematic for launching rockets and apparently you just set the launch impulse circuits in practice mode and it can fire singly.

The question then becomes if you can do this in the cockpit or not.

 

Ah! Yes, of course! There is a training ARAK pod.

Page 476 in the AJS SFI Part 1 Ch 1 https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=168144

 

The Pod has a setting for single or series. The normal ARAK pods always fired everything they got at once, but the training ARAK pod did not!

The ÖRAK is mentioned on the next page, but is unfortunately blurred...

[amalahama]

Why do we have to get "gameplay concessions" in a realistic module? I can assume that the effort to develop Rb75 doesn't pay off and they will use the in-game AGM-65B instead, but why allowing single firing on rockets and FF bombs when the manual says CLEARLY that it's not possible? I don't understand...

 

Regards

[Tackle]

... when the manual says CLEARLY that it's not possible? I don't understand...

Regards

 

Does it?

In the AJS SFI Part 1 Ch 1 linked by Goblin I do see quiet alot Training weapons listed and while my Swedish is limited I guess the word "Singel" does mean there is only one rocket launched?

 

For training purposes it does makes sense and the benefits would be huge - IMO of course.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Tackle
wording

[Goblin]

I can assume that the effort to develop Rb75 doesn't pay off and they will use the in-game AGM-65B instead,

 

I believe this assumption is wrong. The Rb75 is the AGM-65A optically guided Maverick.

The B version would have been possible to launch from the AJ(S)37 and would be interesting as a weapon alternative for a fictive export Viggen. DCS is after all a simulator ;)

 

but why allowing single firing on rockets and FF bombs when the manual says CLEARLY that it's not possible? I don't understand...

 

Well, as you see in my earlier post, there are training options... In a real wartime scenario you would never make a second pass at your target, so it doesn't make sense to launch anything but your entire loadout at once. Not according to the doctrines used by the SwAF at the time anyway. The AJ(S)37 was never intended to carry out CAS missions :)

But, for training, it does make sense to be able to launch just a couple of rockets, so you can make several passes on the firing range.

[amalahama]

Well, as you see in my earlier post, there are training options... In a real wartime scenario you would never make a second pass at your target, so it doesn't make sense to launch anything but your entire loadout at once. Not according to the doctrines used by the SwAF at the time anyway. The AJ(S)37 was never intended to carry out CAS missions :)

But, for training, it does make sense to be able to launch just a couple of rockets, so you can make several passes on the firing range.

 

We both agree on this one. If LN implements both, Training and Live ordinance, then it's fine to implement each option properly linked to each type. But allowing single firing in live ordinance, just "because training ordinance can do it", it's an unnecessary concession that impacts negatively on realism.

 

Regards!

[Cobra847]

Why do we have to get "gameplay concessions" in a realistic module? I can assume that the effort to develop Rb75 doesn't pay off and they will use the in-game AGM-65B instead, but why allowing single firing on rockets and FF bombs when the manual says CLEARLY that it's not possible? I don't understand...

 

Regards

 

 

The exact variant of the AGM-65 used by the SweAF is included, as is the -T variant.

We've also included one variant that is fully compatible with the aircraft, but was not purchased by the SweAF. :)

 

Aside from that minor addition, and the navigation system, I don't think we've ventured into gameplay concessions anywhere (at least, that I can recall)

Edited January 5, 2017 by Cobra847

[Cobra847]

As for training munitions (single firing rocket pods) -- we have not implemented this yet or made a decision.

 

We have a green skinned ÖRAK pod though.

[Charly_Owl]

Haha - yes Chuck is going to have fun condensing this one!

 

:drink: Time to start the coffee machine.

[Goblin]

But allowing single firing in live ordinance, just "because training ordinance can do it", it's an unnecessary concession that impacts negatively on realism.

 

Well, the rocket pod illustrates the problem... The training pod is visually identical to a regular rocket pod, except for one little switch. Internally it has a different firing relay that allows it to launch just one rocket per pod, or all of them (like the regular pod). It still launches whatever rocket that is loaded to the tube, live or inert. So, technically, you could go to war with the training pod and launch six smaller volleys, instead of one big volley, of rockets.

How do you simulate this option, that must be decided pre-flight, in DCS? I don't know...

[Cobra847]

:drink: Time to start the coffee machine.

 

He'll have some lead time before everyone else, thankfully! :D

 

In terms of complexity; the aircraft is really as complex as you make it.

For example; to fire weapons; you're exactly two switches (and the weapon safety cover) away from just depressing the trigger and letting off a volley of rockets.

 

Obviously, setting up waypoints, pop up profiles, measuring target velocity in the HUD, and all of those other helper features of the aircraft take much more practice.

[amalahama]

Well, the rocket pod illustrates the problem... The training pod is visually identical to a regular rocket pod, except for one little switch. Internally it has a different firing relay that allows it to launch just one rocket per pod, or all of them (like the regular pod). It still launches whatever rocket that is loaded to the tube, live or inert. So, technically, you could go to war with the training pod and launch six smaller volleys, instead of one big volley, of rockets.

How do you simulate this option, that must be decided pre-flight, in DCS? I don't know...

 

The only problem is that training ordinance doesn't go 'kaboom', that's why you don't use it in wartime :)

 

Regards

[amalahama]

The exact variant of the AGM-65 used by the SweAF is included, as is the -T variant.

We've also included one variant that is fully compatible with the aircraft, but was not purchased by the SweAF. :)

 

Aside from that minor addition, and the navigation system, I don't think we've ventured into gameplay concessions anywhere (at least, that I can recall)

 

In that case, I'm totally fine with your decision and I don't regret at all of having backed you up with the preorder :thumbup:

 

Regards

[Cobra847]

In that case, I'm totally fine with your decision and I don't regret at all of having backed you up with the preorder :thumbup:

 

Regards

 

Thank you!

:pilotfly:

[Tackle]

As for training munitions (single firing rocket pods) -- we have not implemented this yet or made a decision.

 

We have a green skinned ÖRAK pod though.

 

There is hope then :)

 

We at vF7 would greatly appreciate the inclusion of all and any Training rounds, even if they just add weight to the aircraft.

[Cobra847]

Manual has been updated in the first post. Changelog is as follows.

Thanks to everyone for input and feedback!

 

• Increased margins
  
• Added bookmarks
  
• Clickable index
  
• Fixed mil/km distance indicator flip
  
• Fixed missing “I” (Thanks BritTorrent!)
  
• Changed Heading 1 design
  
• Added Chapter Number on pages
  
• Various spelling and grammar fixes
  
• Rounded up some stray image captions
  
• Fixed Left indicator / warning table numbering
  
• Fixed Right indicator / warning table numbering
  
• Removed some odd page breaks
   
  
• Fixed Flight control system cockpit overview numbering
  
• Added various Note boxes
  
• Changed RPM picture to show 69%
  
• Changed EGT Caption
  
• Removed reference numbers in Backup Attitude Indicator text
  
• Fixed transparency on P.216.
  
• Fixed numbering on P23.
  
• Fixed odd text stretch on P267
   
  
• Numerous transparency fixes
  

[Goblin]

The only problem is that training ordinance doesn't go 'kaboom', that's why you don't use it in wartime :)

 

That's where you're wrong.

Live ordinance is often used for training. They just don't shoot at living targets ;)

And, as I wrote earlier, the training rocket pod is just like the regular pod, but it can launch single rockets.

[WinterH]

Even though I vehemently argue against gameplay concessions, in light of info provided by Goblin, it seems in this case "training pod" being named and used for training is a purely doctrinal.

 

So lack of ability to singly fire rockets in an operational Viggen is doctrinal choice, even though it is technically completely possible to fire them singly with the "right" pod.

 

As long as the default option is the historical one, I'd be fine with this. After all, this isn't like "lets put this missile warning system that was never on this particular aircraft" level of concession at all. :)

 

Sent from my ASUS_Z00ED using Tapatalk

[amalahama]

That's where you're wrong.

Live ordinance is often used for training. They just don't shoot at living targets ;)

And, as I wrote earlier, the training rocket pod is just like the regular pod, but it can launch single rockets.

 

I don't know the specific details of the Swedish training doctrine, but if they are routinely training with live ordinance, they are pretty much one of the few out there.

 

The majority of air forces use specific stores with similar external shape, ballistic properties and guidance as the real thing, but obviously don't blow up for safety reasons, and just mark the impact point with smoke or similar.

 

*Sometimes* they use live ordinance, but in very specific exercises and they just use the real thing, not a "specific training store that it's for training but also can be use for war because it explodes"

 

I understand that, if the Viggen has 2 types of the same pods, one for training and one for operations, the training pods will contain training rockets, with similar ballistic characteristics as the real thing, but "safe" (i.e. they don't explode, intended or unintended) and hence with no use during wartime

 

Regards

[mattebubben]

Ah! Yes, of course! There is a training ARAK pod.

Page 476 in the AJS SFI Part 1 Ch 1 https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=168144

 

The Pod has a setting for single or series. The normal ARAK pods always fired everything they got at once, but the training ARAK pod did not!

The ÖRAK is mentioned on the next page, but is unfortunately blurred...

 

So that is where i got it mixed up then.

 

Mixed up the Training Arak Pod and the Örak.

 

But yea if the Training Arak Pod was capable of launching Live Single Rockets then i would be Okay with them adding it.

 

Since it could be used first for Training as it was supposed to (When Training with the Rockets)

but could also be used on combat missions since where as it would likely not have been done

according to the Swedish Doctrine but during wartime if those pods where the only ones available they could likely have been used in combat missions.

 

And its possible that an export nation might have used those pods for combat since where as the all Rocket Salvo is perfect for

the 1 pass attacks that would be standard in a full out conflict against the Soviets (which was the only real concern for the Swedish airforce)

there are other Scenarios where having the Single launch ability could be benefitial

(Anti-Insurgent/Guerilla missions etc where the threat against the aircraft is minimal so multiple attacks are possible without risk)

 

What they could do it just add the Different the Pod options with the Normal ARAK pod being the standard all at once mode

and the Training Pod having the Single option (just like there are multiple rocket pods avaliable for the Hydra 70 rockets in the A-10etc).

 

Then if one wants to be Realistic one can limit the Training pod for just training missions and use the Standard Pod for combat missions

(Atleast When Flying a Swedish airforce Viggen).

 

 

That way Servers could also limit it if they really wanted to (by simply not adding the Training pods to the Armaments list)

Edited January 5, 2017 by mattebubben