Introducing the VPC MongoosT-50

[dburne]

Small tip for those who have the screws blocked and/or destroyed:

- drill the screw with a small diameter drill bit. Use a high temperature mini torch or even a soldiering iron to heat up the screw. The drilled hole helps high temperature to better dissipate to entire screw length. Everything there is metal so you will risk nothing, just be a bit careful to not torch the electronics :D

 

The mini torch is something like this:

https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/micro-flame-butane-torches

 

The thread lock compound is generally affected by high temperatures so that you can easily unscrew it when is heated enough.

 

I would urge caution throwing a drill on it, I got the bright idea to try and drill out a stuck cam and destroyed my first gimbal. I am sure many would be way more talented at this approach though than I am, just be careful.

[SinusoidDelta]

There's no way the cams are laser cut that's far too crude of a process to make cams, especially tiny ones like these. The marks along the machined edge are called 'sniping' and is a result of flex in the milling cutter or setup. In this case is a pretty small diameter cutter do accommodate the arc in the center (bit has to be smaller than the smallest radius) so is almost certainly flex in the bit. The solutions are pretty simple so it's puzzling why it's still happening unless it's a cost cutting measure. They are not machining their own parts and the shop in China is probably just trying to get through them as fast as possible or with the least amount of consumption or being cute with tooling, but for cutting cams you need really good bits and operators for really good results.

 

Solution(s) for sniping:

 

1) more rigid setup -don't stick bit out as far, use stiffer bit, clamp better

 

2) do more than 1 finish pass. Normally you first rough machine the shape, then go back and shave off the last .005" - .010" to bring it to finish size. In this case I would rough it and do 2 or more finish passes, with the last one cutting only .002" and maybe follow that with a 'spring pass', where the tool travels the same route as the last pass to take care of what tiny amount was still left behind due to cutter/tool flex. Also might alter rpm/ipm for better results (higher rpm+lower feed rate = smoother finish)

 

3) don't be cheap with milling cutters -replace them more often, use only high quality cutters for this particular critical piece, make sure coolant is up to the task.

 

4) final finish with grinder vs milling cutter, likely unecessary if 1-3 is followed.

 

Of course by moving manufacturing out of house it's hard to have control over these details, but so long as you are familiar with them yourself it's just a matter of communication to convey this to the people actually cutting them, perhaps paying them a little more to make sure they come out right if that's what it takes to maintain qc.

 

Yeah. As a former CNC machinist the cams may be use laser cutting for the rough cutting. But the finishing process looks to be done with a vertical mill. The one photo you can see the burr has “pushed” up and over, off the cam’s radiused working surface and onto the plane that has the 2 countersunk holes (the holes appear to be plunge cut at improper feeds/speeds based on surface finish). This indictates an end mill performed a finishing pass, typically high speed, low feed pass and as you said a shallow depth that varies depending on the steel. Feeds and speeds in addition to using a non ideal cutting tool on the finishing pass (more Ideal would be a shorter higher flute count HSS, Ideal would be carbide) seem like the obvious problem here. Something I’m curious about is they almost appear to be electroplated based on odd surface finish on the far right cam, far right portion of the working surface.

Edited October 30, 2017 by SinusoidDelta

[Hoffster]

Yeah. As a former CNC machinist the cams may be use laser cutting for the rough cutting. But the finishing process looks to be done with a vertical mill. The one photo you can see the burr has “pushed” up and over, off the cam’s radiused working surface and onto the plane that has the 2 countersunk holes (the holes appear to be plunge cut at improper feeds/speeds based on surface finish). This indictates an end mill performed a finishing pass, typically high speed, low feed pass and as you said a shallow depth that varies depending on the steel. Feeds and speeds in addition to using a non ideal cutting tool on the finishing pass (more Ideal would be a shorter higher flute count HSS, Ideal would be carbide) seem like the obvious problem here. Something I’m curious about is they almost appear to be electroplated based on odd surface finish on the far right cam, far right portion of the working surface.

 

I am looking at the supplied cams (not installed ones) and i can see Heat discoloration on the surfaces of them, you know rainbow effect like you get on surfaces that have been cut with something like a laser or similar heat source. On all sides. Might differ on others batches, but i cannot speak for that.

[SinusoidDelta]

I am looking at the supplied cams (not installed ones) and i can see Heat discoloration on the surfaces of them, you know rainbow effect like you get on surfaces that have been cut with something like a laser or similar heat source. On all sides. Might differ on others batches, but i cannot speak for that.

 

More than one reason you could be seeing that: using a dry machining process or inadequate coolant flow, excessive feed/speed depth, or even post process heat treatment. When metal is removed with rotating cutting tool, the machined surface becomes strain (aka work) hardened. This is can be undesirable in many applications and can be altered through heat treating though I don’t think it’s necesary here. It also could indicate laser cutting or wire EDM for the roughing process.

 

Which picture specifically are you looking at?.

Edited October 30, 2017 by SinusoidDelta

[Hoffster]

More than one reason you could be seeing that: using a dry machining process or inadequate coolant flow, excessive feed/speed depth, or even post process heat treatment. When metal is removed with rotating cutting tool, the machined surface becomes strain (aka work) hardened. This is can be undesirable in many applications and can be altered through heat treating though I don’t think it’s necesary here. It also could indicate laser cutting or wire EDM for the roughing process.

 

Which picture specifically are you looking at?.

 

This is a good example of the surface on the cams.

 

https://cdn.mate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/LCQG_Feedrate.jpg

[Hoffster]

In the end i dont see this as a deal breaker for this joystick at all.I just used som fine sandpaper and a little time and got a mirror like finish on one of the cams pretty easily. Anyone could do that.

 

The big one is the screws and loctite, makes removing them a pain. 2 drilled and tapped new holes for me :) should have used hex head screws.

 

Still haven't plugged it in yet. :thumbup: looking forward to that.

[Nabaza]

In the end i dont see this as a deal breaker for this joystick at all.I just used som fine sandpaper and a little time and got a mirror like finish on one of the cams pretty easily. Anyone could do that.

 

Anyone probably could but shouldn't have to. My joystick has been just an expensive paperweight ever since I got it. Haven't flown with it at all. Got the replacement cams as well in late august or early september, they weren't polished either and even missing the no center cams. Maybe in december I can get to it and try sandpaper on one of the original cams but this whole thing is a mess.

[Cyph3r]

Anyone probably could but shouldn't have to. My joystick has been just an expensive paperweight ever since I got it. Haven't flown with it at all. Got the replacement cams as well in late august or early september, they weren't polished either and even missing the no center cams. Maybe in december I can get to it and try sandpaper on one of the original cams but this whole thing is a mess.

 

I'm sorry to hear that your replacements weren't up to scratch, a lot has changed since late August. Can you send me your order number please? I also didn't know you were missing your no-center cams. Please email me on sale@virpil.com!

 

We can't resolve these issues unless you let us know!

[SinusoidDelta]

This is a good example of the surface on the cams.

 

https://cdn.mate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/LCQG_Feedrate.jpg

 

Ah, I haven’t seen any pictures of the cam surface that close. Maybe I’m not looking far enough back in the thread. If that’s the surface finish you’re seeing then the parts are almost certainly being cut with a water jet.

 

Correction: It looks like those are 3 different cutting tools in the image? Are you referring to the bottom most one?

Edited October 30, 2017 by SinusoidDelta

[Bogey Jammer]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3239963&postcount=1304

 

What do you think ? :D

[SinusoidDelta]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3239963&postcount=1304

 

What do you think ? :D

 

After seeing the pictures I think I shouldn’t have speculated. From my experience as a CNC machinist as an engineer, I’ve had an emphasis on metrology, GD&T, and V&V.

 

Saying what I really think about the quality of those cams is essentially engineering for free. It would likely just get me into trouble here.

 

I think VPC if anyone should explain.

[Cyph3r]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3239963&postcount=1304

 

What do you think ? :D

 

Now why did you pick such an old example? :smilewink: There are more recent examples in this thread - in fact there are some from just a few pages ago! Anyone who has received cams they are not happy with can contact us anytime to receive a replacement set!

 

 

We're constantly working to improve based on community feedback, the cams especially - I will post some new photos of the cams tomorrow :)

Edited October 30, 2017 by Cyph3r

[Bogey Jammer]

Now why did you pick such an old example?

I regularly watch this topic but apparently not enough to catch everything. Your picture definitely shows that the cams are now much better :thumbup:

[Pasquale1986]

Now why did you pick such an old example? :smilewink: There are more recent examples in this thread - in fact there are some from just a few pages ago! Anyone who has received cams they are not happy with can contact us anytime to receive a replacement set!

 

 

We're constantly working to improve based on community feedback, the cams especially - I will post some new photos of the cams tomorrow :)

 

Just my opinion:

 

I recieved my T50 with base 10 days ago. My cams look really well manufactured - comparable to the ones on the picture cyph3r posted. Everything is very well manufactured - there are no loose parts or anything. The Stick is super precise and the adjustement for the centre stick force on the base works extremely well when switching between the mongoose stick and my warthog stick with the extension (which in my opinion is neccessary because of the extra weight of the warthog). That beeing said i am super happy with the quality of the product - the stick feels amazing - and i am absolutely confident that i will not be able to brake the base in daily use. The base is lightyears beyond my warthog base.

[Cyph3r]

Just my opinion:

 

I recieved my T50 with base 10 days ago. My cams look really well manufactured - comparable to the ones on the picture cyph3r posted. Everything is very well manufactured - there are no loose parts or anything. The Stick is super precise and the adjustement for the centre stick force on the base works extremely well when switching between the mongoose stick and my warthog stick with the extension (which in my opinion is neccessary because of the extra weight of the warthog). That beeing said i am super happy with the quality of the product - the stick feels amazing - and i am absolutely confident that i will not be able to brake the base in daily use. The base is lightyears beyond my warthog base.

 

Thanks Pasquale1986! Glad to hear you're enjoying the MT-50 :thumbsup:

[lokodehortaleza]

Same here, I preordered the T-50 base, it was great as received. When I disassembled it to try the extra cams and springs I was totally satisfied with the design, build quality and finish. I had the bad cams too, but it only took an email with a few photos to have a replacement set sent free of charge.

 

The T-50 mechanism is quite rugged and should easily outlast every other joystick I've ever had. The greasy ball Warthog base can't even compare.

[Rogue Trooper]

Thanks Dburne for the feedback and all other contributors after my question, all very usefull info.

 

 

At the moment I use Wassy100's 10cm stainless extension. Are the current warthog extensions compatible with the Mongoose T-50 base?

If I went for the base unit to use with my hawg grip could I just use the wassy100 extension?

 

 

With the complete TH Hawg stick, and looking at the top of the grip, a rotary twist or play of 1 or 2 degrees either side of neutral is possible due to the gimbal construction.

Is the Mongoose T-50 base rock solid and free of play?

Does it feel firm (apart from free fluid movement in the expected direction of travel)?

 

 

I am starting to tense the trigger, I can feel and hear the sear creaking for a crisp hammer release. A purchase is starting to feel right.

 

 

Hey Cyph3r,

What is the lead time for the base unit and can I order it with light springs and soft centred cams already installed?

Edited November 3, 2017 by Rogue Trooper

[dburne]

Thanks Dburne for the feedback and all other contributors after my question, all very usefull info.

 

 

At the moment I use Wassy100's 10cm stainless extension. Are the current warthog extensions compatible with the Mongoose T-50 base?

If I went for the base unit to use with my hawg grip could I just use the wassy100 extension?

 

Yep sure can. However I will say I thought I might just stick with my Warthog grip, but having that brake lever as an axis along with a button both is a very nice feature. So I stuck with the Mongoose grip.

 

With the complete TH Hawg stick, and looking at the top of the grip, a rotary twist or play of 1 or 2 degrees either side of neutral is possible due to the gimbal construction.

Is the Mongoose T-50 base rock solid and free of play?

Does it feel firm (apart from free fluid movement in the expected direction of travel)?

 

Oh yeah. You can twist it however much you like on the base prior to tightening, but tightened up it is rock solid. Keep in mind also the different cams, and adjustable spring tensioner from top of gimbal. And different springs as well. Very customizable.

I settled on soft center cams and soft springs, and love it.

With the soft center cams, there is certainly some softness around center. I tightened it up some with the spring tensioner screws and got it about perfect for my tastes. I can feel just a little slight resistance when starting to move the stick in the pitch and roll axis, which is what I like to keep my hand from "drifting" either way.

 

I am starting to tense the trigger, I can feel and hear the sear creaking for a crisp hammer release. A purchase is starting to feel right.

 

Still loving mine and I have now accumulated many hours of flying on almost a daily basis with it.

Edited November 4, 2017 by dburne

[Karon]

The cams in the picture above are mine. Base #201 so I can image that every base released later has the same quality.

 

My issue with the sensor/connector has been fixed last week. I have contacted one of Virpil's engineer and they immediately shipped a pair of connectors and sensors. Arrived in a week, it took 10 minutes to change it (1 minute to open, close and change the sensor - 9 minutes to remount the PCB :S ) and now is perfect.

 

Some pics of the surgery.

Before:

 

Sensor and connector replaced:

 

Surgery completed!

 

 

Great response time by Virpil, now I just have to persuade my wife to let me buying their throttle :)

[dburne]

Virpil's support has indeed been awesome as I have used them as well.

 

I am very pleased with my choice of a VPC stick.

[graxxor]

Has anyone managed to swap the thumb button for a hat? Would that be a doable mod? I haven’t seen a photo of the inside of the grip with the switches. I’ll be using Virpil’s base.

[Lenux]

My joystick arrived today, i tested it only 30-40 minutes, i'm very busy atm

All i can say is WOW

:)

It's 10 times better than the TM WH joystick

I have also received 2 another springs, blue and red ( and some cams )

Are those springs softer or harder than the default one ?

I'm very impressed, this joystick is great, it feels so smooth, precise, light, awesome buttons, hand rest adjustment.

I just love this joystick.

The Virpil throttle is on my list, already :)

[dburne]

My joystick arrived today, i tested it only 30-40 minutes, i'm very busy atm

All i can say is WOW

:)

It's 10 times better than the TM WH joystick

I have also received 2 another springs, blue and red ( and some cams )

Are those springs softer or harder than the default one ?

I'm very impressed, this joystick is great, it feels so smooth, precise, light, awesome buttons, hand rest adjustment.

I just love this joystick.

The Virpil throttle is on my list, already :)

 

Congrats!!

 

Cams:

1 Dot = Hard Center

2 Dot = Soft Center

4 Dot = No Center

 

Springs:

White = Light

Blue = Medium

Red = Heavy

[Karon]

My joystick arrived today, i tested it only 30-40 minutes, i'm very busy atm

All i can say is WOW

:)

It's 10 times better than the TM WH joystick

I have also received 2 another springs, blue and red ( and some cams )

Are those springs softer or harder than the default one ?

I'm very impressed, this joystick is great, it feels so smooth, precise, light, awesome buttons, hand rest adjustment.

I just love this joystick.

The Virpil throttle is on my list, already :)

Default is medium springs (I have immediately changed mine to light) + soft cams.

Same here about the throttle. Can't wait to see some in-depth preview.

[Lenux]

I'm not sure but I think, default is light springs ( white springs?)

I have 2 more springs, in the little plastic bag, 2 x red and 2 x blue

Edited November 10, 2017 by Lenux