Spitfire better than P-51D for online matches?

[MaxDamage]

Oh dear... You do realize that the kurfust was a rare aircraft, look at the G6 and G14 much closer in terms of performance.

 

Now look at the Griffin spitfires and tempest which were the front line fighter in the timeline of the kurfust.

 

The IX in late 1944/1945 was ever increasingly used for CAS missions

 

What we have is a 50-60 kmh advantage. G6 G14 or G10 can be at ~25-30 kmh advantage with MW50. Still indicates the spit is obsolete. I dont like the K4 choice and d9, too. Would be better wtih g6,10,14 and a8. But then still spit will be outmatched by a lot in a vertical and in speed.

[Krupi]

Since this notion repeatedly crawls back to discussions, there is already a separate thread addressing the issue of availability and difference in performance etc. between late 109G and K models of 1944.

There is no need to spill that discussion over and over again to other threads.

 

Short version: the G-14 would be actually a tougher costumer at these typical sub 4000 meter altitudes in DCS. Its basically lighter, marginally slower but otherwise better-at-everything 109K, with a 20mm instead of the Rainbow 108.

 

Yes and it proves my point, however you want to spin it the K4 was a rare aircraft thank you :thumbup:

 

G14 would have been the perfect choice great performance but not quite so fast.

 

Historical production values...

 

For those that want see the actual numbers and the produce dates

 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2462&highlight=neubau+109&page=3 Post #28

Edited January 24, 2017 by Krupi

[Krupi]

What we have is a 50-60 kmh advantage. G6 G14 or G10 can be at ~25-30 kmh advantage with MW50. Still indicates the spit is obsolete. I dont like the K4 choice and d9, too. Would be better wtih g6,10,14 and a8. But then still spit will be outmatched by a lot in a vertical and in speed.

 

~405mph compared to ~415mph is hardly obsolete.

 

Unfortunately MaxDamage and Kurfust I find your points of view so uncompromisingly biased I can't take you seriously.

[Kurfürst]

Modelling the 1944 G-6, G-14 or G-10 or A-8 or any other aircraft is certainly possible. You 'only' need their complete flight and maintainace manuals describing their internal systems in depth and of course things like flight tests and/or estimates for the given model.

 

Thing about the K-4 and D-9 is that, being more or less completely redesigned 'new' models they were issued with a complete set of their own parts and maintainace manuals describing every bit of tiny details, whereas the older models, being mere modifications and as such typically have nothing more issued than what is basically and amendment of older existing manuals.

 

Same goes to all aircraft, I believe this is oddly the issue with the P-47D. Pretty common IRL, but, as I understand, the Republic archieves being more or less completely destroyed, its a bit iffy to do research on it.

[Whisper]

From what I see in the servers, the Spitfire was all the rage for about 2 weeks, and now.....you don't see it being flown much at all. The P51 is used more. Every time I go to get in a WWII plane, the Spitfire seems to be fully available because people have gone back to the Mustang, and the Axis fighters are usually the majority.

I've the complete opposite experience. I'm usually on Axis because 1) there's no more Spitfire spot available or 2) the number are so much on Allied advantage that I don't see me adding even more.

[Whisper]

It is incredibly annoying that we now have to struggle along with an older aircraft until the XIV makes an appearance or someone gets given the nod to make the G6 or G14 the later of which would have been the correct choice.

 

The whole it wasn't EDs response is beginning to wear very very thin, they could and should have changed it now the allies are on the back foot and if a 109 or 190 decides to run you can't do anything about it.

 

Add to this the 109 and 190 pilots and squads that have had years to learn the aircraft and the situation gets a whole lot worse.

 

I am counting on VEAO to change the quite frankly awful status quo I don't think ED care about the miss match unfortunately.

Aren't you vastly overinflating the issue there? We were both online when Allied won yesterday on BS, weren't we? :) That should not happen if the disaster is as horrible as you outline it

 

Am I the only one that consider that if my ennemy is fleeing, and not there anymore where I am, I won?

[razo+r]

If you are complaining that your spit can't keep up with the german ones, since most germans are out there alone, you should be able to make that flaw up with teamwork, or use their tactic, i mean, i fly all WWII planes, and if i can in the spit, i take it up to 20K feet so i make up my speed with altitude over the german ones...

 

Also you can use their tactic, B&Z if you can do this of course...

 

And to be honest, except maneuvers, there isn't much to learn in WWII planes...

[Krupi]

The spitfire is probably the hardest aircraft to b&z given how easily one can overload the structure.

[razo+r]

since it isn't meant to b&z, you need a lot of training with it and always have a feeling for the limits

[Krupi]

Aren't you vastly overinflating the issue there? We were both online when Allied won yesterday on BS, weren't we? :) That should not happen if the disaster is as horrible as you outline it

 

Am I the only one that consider that if my ennemy is fleeing, and not there anymore where I am, I won?

 

The short answer to both of those questions is NO.

 

The BS stats prove that online things are still quite one sided.

 

If a 109 or 190 runs it is because they are using the performance advantage to ensure they can dictate the fight not fleeing more tactics

[Krupi]

since it isn't meant to b&z, you need a lot of training with it and always have a feeling for the limits

 

So you prove my point, bar the cannons the P51 is the better aircraft for b&z

[razo+r]

the P-51 is better for it, but you can do it in the Spit too

 

also most spits get shot down low, so get high, that will very likely increase you lifespan

[Krupi]

the P-51 is better for it, but you can do it in the Spit too

 

also most spits get shot down low, so get high, that will very likely increase you lifespan

 

Of course, there are many factors as to why the axis win on BS and one of these is the simple fact that there are always more axis on teamspeak working together while I am on TS last night by myself for the most part with three 109s jumping me on take off

 

I shadowed a 109 at his base on the weekend and ended up only catching him circling above the very base I TOOK OFF FROM LOL, this was because I didn't want to just attack him after take off but still a huge height advantage didn't help me catch him

Edited January 24, 2017 by Krupi

[razo+r]

axis don't always win, i remember, there were like zero people from the blue team going for the ground targets, while some red pilots took bombs and went for the targets

 

Sometimes even i get followed by 3, sometimes more, sometimes less spits, rarely a mustang...

 

and there is one rule for war IMO: there's no rule for war, so don't feel bad for your enemy, i mean, you can see that a lot with what red pilots do over novo... unless it's a rule from the server...

 

I'd say, people should use P-51 for ground attack or following a 109/190 while spits are escorting them...

[Krupi]

http://burning-skies.vioo.com.ua/en/servers/4/show.html

 

Says it all...

Edited January 24, 2017 by Krupi

[Enduro14]

sounds like a bunch of spawn campers to me, so its unfortunate the ww2 stuff is just a bunch of Air quakers aswell. Hopefully missions get more fleshed out in normandy with some real escort and ground attack missions going.

[Krupi]

sounds like a bunch of spawn campers to me, so its unfortunate the ww2 stuff is just a bunch of Air quakers aswell. Hopefully missions get more fleshed out in normandy with some real escort and ground attack missions going.

 

Yes I really hope you are right.

[Hiromachi]

I'd say, people should use P-51 for ground attack or following a 109/190 while spits are escorting them...

Thank you for the wise advise, but frankly I feel its Spitfires that require escort for the most part. I can handle myself with a help of a buddy more frequently than I can expect assistance from Spitty - there were numerous instances where I had someone on my six when flying alone and despite that bogey had Spitfires on his tail too and I tried to make it easy for them to catch it, they somehow couldnt deliver coup de grâce. More often I get annoyed by Spitfires, since I work hard on target and pour .50s on him only to notice that some Spitfire comes, fires short burst and gets the reward.

 

 

@up

Oh strafing on BS is so common, those airfields are extremely close and despite some ground targets sprinkled over map, most people fight in one spot - area between Allied airbase and Allied objective no. 3. Getting killed upon take-off, climb or landing is nothing unusual there. And it doesnt help that Novorosijsk is not a big airfield, single airstrip makes landing-takeoff operations problematic since there is always someone doing one or the other and someone doing the opposite. I dont like that base tbh.

Personally I favor ACG, somehow mission seems to be better set for my taste.

[Kurfürst]

I have an idea. If you think the Spit/51 is so underpowered, why don't you just fly 109/190s?

 

Given you seem to be more interested in the relative competitiveness part than actually getting as close as possible to the experience of how yout favourite aircraft flew, that would probably work out for you and remove much of that frustration you have with the perceived lack of 'balance'.

[Krupi]

You have entirely missed the point Kurfust, we don't want the aircraft to be balanced we want the aircraft to be historically correct and a historically correct plane set would bring its own kind of balance.

 

I fly both sides and the simple FACT is that the Luftwaffe have been given the latest and greatest aircraft that have no right to be in a Normandy theatre while the Allies have been given the most common aircraft of the Normandy theatre so this completely upsets any chance of creating a historical setting and certainly any kind of "balance" that could have been achieved.

 

If you speak to anybody that flies on both sides and I am 100% sure that they will tell you flying on the AXIS side is almost always a turkey shoot.

 

As Yo-Yo says speed is life and currently the allies have significantly slower aircraft.

 

Imagine if the allies were given the Spitfire Mk XIV/Tempest and the Axis a 1943 G6 and A8 are you telling me you would be fine with that... Because I would not be I would kicking and screaming as I am now.

 

If the status quo remains then the DCS ww2 venture wil be for nought eventually the people who will only fly for allies will get fed up and find a more enjoyable SIM and the axis pilots will get bored of the lack of opposition which is exactly what we had before the release of the Spitfire. Only the hard-core players remained in very low numbers.

 

The spitfire has certainly brought new players and old ones back but for how long?

 

If something doesn't change then DCS might as well cease work on anything to do with WW2.

 

Now regarding stop moaning and fly axis, well before the release of the spitfire I was flying axis however I get so bored of the lopsided multiplayer I stopped flying for months... I had hoped the IX would do something to counter this and while it certainly has had an impact the truth is that multiplayer remains just as lopsided as before.

 

You do not fly online so I don't expect you to appreciate these facts.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Krupi

[Solty]

axis don't always win, i remember, there were like zero people from the blue team going for the ground targets, while some red pilots took bombs and went for the targets

 

Sometimes even i get followed by 3, sometimes more, sometimes less spits, rarely a mustang...

 

and there is one rule for war IMO: there's no rule for war, so don't feel bad for your enemy, i mean, you can see that a lot with what red pilots do over novo... unless it's a rule from the server...

 

I'd say, people should use P-51 for ground attack or following a 109/190 while spits are escorting them...

 

So you want Spitfires to escort Mustangs? How? They can't keep up and any adversary that comes with speed cannot be chased off. The only good spits can do is be a target for LW, so maybe they leave 51s alone but that can also be done by other mustangs.

 

Sure, mustang is more capable at ground attack, but that doesn't mean Spitfire is automatically better at air to air.

 

People think Spit is a better fighter just because it turns better, while it has inferior roll, speed, dive, energy retention, zoom.

 

The reason why Mustangs tend to die is because people try to flat turn only against 109s. I have also seen some 190s trying to turn with Spitfires. Sometimes it can pay off. But mostly in a heavier airplane it is a death sentence.

 

Turning is a natural need of a player to do something, and it can win battles. But it is not the only way. Ever heard of tactics like B&Z, Drag and Bag. Maneuvers such as. scissors, rolling scissors, high yoyo, immelman, defensive spiral, etc.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Solty

[Krupi]

Haha. So you want Spitfire's to escort Mustangs? How? They can't jeep up and any adversary that comes with speed cannot be chased off. The only good spits can do is be a target for LW, so maybe they leave 51s alone.:lol:

 

Sure, mustang is more capable at ground attack, but that doesn't mean Spitfire is automatically better at air to air.

 

People who think Spit is a better fighter just because it turns better, while it has inferior roll, speed, dive, energy retention, zoom.

 

The reason why Mustangs tend to die is because people try to flat turn only against 109s. I have also seen some 190s trying to turn with Spitfires. Sometimes it can pay off. But mostly in a heavier airplane it is a death sentence.

 

Turning is a natural need of a player to do something, and it can win battles. But is not the only way. Ever heard of tactics like B&Z, Drag and Bag. Maneuvers such as. scissors, rolling scissors, high yoyo, immelman, defensive spiral, etc.

 

Each to their own, personally I have far more success in a spitfire than I ever have had in a P51.

 

The spitfire has improved the survivability of flying a P51 that is for certain, 109 and 190 pilots have to think twice about going into a turn fight

[Kurfürst]

You have entirely missed the point Kurfust, we don't want the aircraft to be balanced we want the aircraft to be historically correct and a historically correct plane set would bring its own kind of balance.

 

We have a historically correct planeset for the Battle of the Bulge, flying over Normandy though. The odd choice is Normandy when you already have a late Mustang and a late Dora. If you want to fly a historically correct planeset for Normandy, fly the Spitfire IX offline over it, because that is actually the only strictly historically correct plane for that map.

 

Now. As noted before, this 'I don't like the planeset of 1944' was done through many times already. Its boring to keep getting back to it. It also will not change a bit whether you like it or not.. Please refer back to earlier posts no. 111 and no. 125 for further information and just DEAL WITH IT.

 

In any case, DCS is not a prime choice for multiplayer yet. Not with this netcode and optimalization, where you get around HALF the fps you get offline, and not without a working DM.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Kurfürst

[Whisper]

An "historicaly correct" plane set, as you put it, is going to take years. That's what it took to get us there with 4 planes. I don't know what you really expect, tbh.

If it's about changing the current planes parameters to fit more to real numbers, then we need to show that current parameters are wrong, which doesn't seem to be, and it doesn't look like that's the point you're making.

If it's about asking for new planes, then crying that much will get us nowhere. We can only hope for third parties to take it in their hands. That disparity is part of the way dcs works unfortunately, the same issues are seen on every parts of the sim, and since then ED did nothing to show a will to correct this issue. They have taken over a project and done with what was given to them. The "original sin" (k4) wasn't on their hands. If they want to have the wwii project ongoing, they have to build on more historically numerous planes so I understands their choice of spitfire version. It's just going to take a looooong time to get past the original sin.

 

 

As for my first questions, I definitely confirm, it was not Monday but Sunday, at least you, Tomsk & me (kalbuth) on ts, round ended up for blue, while we were over friendly obj 3 (there were planes crashing into each others involved ;) ). That's anecdotal but all the horrible experiences shared here by allied pilots are totally not mine on BS , so I'm quite baffled by the complete negativity shown

[Krupi]

We have a historically correct planeset for the Battle of the Bulge, flying over Normandy though. The odd choice is Normandy when you already have a late Mustang and a late Dora. If you want to fly a historically correct planeset for Normandy, fly the Spitfire IX offline over it, because that is actually the only strictly historically correct plane for that map.

 

Now. As noted before, this 'I don't like the planeset of 1944' was done through many times already. Its boring to keep getting back to it. It also will not change a bit whether you like it or not.. Please refer back to earlier posts no. 111 and no. 125 for further information and just DEAL WITH IT.

 

In any case, DCS is not a prime choice for multiplayer yet. Not with this netcode and optimalization, where you get around HALF the fps you get offline, and not without a working DM.

 

If the situation were reversed you would be moaning as well.

 

By the time the Kurfust and Dora were around in anything close to reasonable numbers the IX had been moved to CAS missions using the tactics learnt by DAF.

 

The spitfire XIV and Tempest were the ones used on fighter recons around this time.