Spitfire better than P-51D for online matches?

[NineLine]

PS Part 2, if I was a German pilot in MP, I would try and help the Spitfire guys to get their +25lbs boost option, and then sit back watching Spits blow engines in stall fights, make a couple weeks of easier kills until they learned their lesson ;)

[Enduro14]

I agree with Sith on this, currently its just air quake once we get the map and proper tgts, damage model and missions it will be a different story just like it was in the war. But yes i hope all the different ammunition and Fuel is available also though..

[DefaultFace]

^^hehehe. :music_whistling: totally never had this conversation.

 

I really struggle to understand what more people want with the spit. I find it very competitive. If you can't kill things in the spit you're doing something wrong.

[Art-J]

From discussions with people it looks the primary factors that "make the product die a slow death" and certainly prevent customers from Il-2 and CloD platforms from coming in are: lack of period map and AI planes/units, limited flyable planes lineup, damage modelling, target visibility and AI flight routines. All these are getting dealt with in one way or another and rightfully so, because they're far more important for creating a WWII environment basis than all the fuels-vs-manifold pressures soap opera.

[Krupi]

PS Part 2, if I was a German pilot in MP, I would try and help the Spitfire guys to get their +25lbs boost option, and then sit back watching Spits blow engines in stall fights, make a couple weeks of easier kills until they learned their lesson ;)

 

Don't worry that is already happening... :music_whistling:

 

I have decided not to bother asking for 25lb/s it is obvious that we will not be getting it even though it is certain that a good few squadrons of spitfire IX were using it.

 

Please correct me on the details below...

 

All these problems boil down to the skewed time frame. If we take the map time frame as June/July we will have 130 octane +18lbs spits until August with 150 being used by ADGB in diver operations.

 

From August +25lbs spits are used on long range missions over Germany from ADGB.

 

 

 

Now we know that all the spits on the continent were 130 octane +18lbs so you could argue that it was more likely to encounter 130 Octane Spits over Normandy however if you take into account the retreat of the Luftwaffe and the fact that 2TAF spitfires were now seen in a CAS role harassing the Panzer divisions rather than fighter the case could be argued that the ADGB units flying it armed fighter sweeps and bomber support were more likely to be the fighters encountered by the K4 especially when you consider the K4 only started to arrive in large numbers in October two months after ADGB started its armed recce into German territory...

 

That is why I think we should see at least an option to have +25lbs, it certainly wasn't common in terms of % compared to +18lbs spits during 1944 however looking at the stats simply doesn't tell us the whole story, when you look at the facts it becomes clear that there were Mk IX ~25lbs boosts flying against K4 in Q3/4 1944.

 

In 1945 Spitfire ~25lbs 150 octane squadrons were common however we now have moved on from a Normandy theatre to a defence of the Reich scenario.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Krupi

[NineLine]

As I said, special operations, long range recon would be one of those as well, point is they need to keep speeds high and temps down using 25lbs boost.

 

The 2nd operation, cover and support. Sounds like the didnt see much in the way of enemy aircraft, so not sure what it was helping there as well. And you just cant get around the issue with overheating using the 25lbs boost.

 

If we get a bigger map, into Germany, V2s, again I will fight for 25lbs, we can do armed recon, V2 intercepts and all those good things... but its not gonna help right now.

[Krupi]

As I said, special operations, long range recon would be one of those as well, point is they need to keep speeds high and temps down using 25lbs boost.

 

The 2nd operation, cover and support. Sounds like the didnt see much in the way of enemy aircraft, so not sure what it was helping there as well. And you just cant get around the issue with overheating using the 25lbs boost.

 

If we get a bigger map, into Germany, V2s, again I will fight for 25lbs, we can do armed recon, V2 intercepts and all those good things... but its not gonna help right now.

 

LOL you make it sound like these chaps were flying around everywhere at full throttle... you can't even do that with 18lbs it would only be used when needed...

 

Hence the need for this...

 

[Krupi]

As I said, special operations, long range recon would be one of those as well, point is they need to keep speeds high and temps down using 25lbs boost.

 

The 2nd operation, cover and support. Sounds like the didnt see much in the way of enemy aircraft, so not sure what it was helping there as well. And you just cant get around the issue with overheating using the 25lbs boost.

 

If we get a bigger map, into Germany, V2s, again I will fight for 25lbs, we can do armed recon, V2 intercepts and all those good things... but its not gonna help right now.

 

If you argue that way can you remove the K4 and D9 from the sim since they weren't used over Normandy, ED can add them back once we get a German theatre THANKS! :doh:

HELL AT LEAST THERE WAS HISTORICAL EVIDENCE THAT THE 25lbs SPIT WAS ACTUALLY AROUND DURING THE NORMANDY LANDINGS

 

So much fail Sith :doh:

Edited January 27, 2017 by Krupi

[NineLine]

LOL you make it sound like these chaps were flying around everywhere at full throttle... you can't even do that with 18lbs it would only be used when needed...

 

Hence the need for this...

 

image

 

Of course not, but flying in a straight line is cooling a lot better than stall fighting.

 

As I said, I hope you guys get it one day, I cant wait to jump on a server and watch all the dead spits falling from the skies with self inflicted damage ;)

[Enduro14]

sith like your bottom pick!

[NineLine]

sith like your bottom pick!

 

Thanks to Wags for letting me share a little :D

[Enduro14]

Ya high five to wags, man cant wait

[Talisman_VR]

If you argue that way can you remove the K4 and D9 from the sim since they weren't used over Normandy, ED can add them back once we get a German theatre THANKS! :doh:

HELL AT LEAST THERE WAS HISTORICAL EVIDENCE THAT THE 25lbs SPIT WAS ACTUALLY AROUND DURING THE NORMANDY LANDINGS

 

So much fail Sith :doh:

 

Not just around during the Normandy landings, but before and after the landings too!

 

I think it was Nelson who is said to have put a telescope to his blind eye once and said "I see no ships".

If folks don't want to see evidence for 25lbs Spit there is always the blind eye trick. That is such a funny thing to do :lol:

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[Talisman_VR]

The difference between the Spitfire and Mustang will have an added dynamic when we get the clip wing Spit. I am very much looking forward to the clip wing version :)

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[DefaultFace]

If the 150 hp it added are so insignificant then why do people lose their mind about an extra 200 for the Pony......

[NineLine]

If the 150 hp it added are so insignificant then why do people lose their mind about an extra 200 for the Pony......

 

Good question.

[NineLine]

Not just around during the Normandy landings, but before and after the landings too!

 

I think it was Nelson who is said to have put a telescope to his blind eye once and said "I see no ships".

If folks don't want to see evidence for 25lbs Spit there is always the blind eye trick. That is such a funny thing to do :lol:

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

Kinda like turning a blind eye to what kind of missions +25lbs was generally used for, and what Yo-Yo has stated would most likely happen if you went all hog wild on that boost in combat such as a stall fight. I am quite aware what the evidence is, I know what it was used for, I know the squadrons it was used with, and their general tasks during that time period, I also know the owner of TFC knows this information and seeing as his job revolves around these aircraft and their history, I am pretty confident he knows a little bit, not to mention once again Yo-Yo (whose favorite aircraft happens to be the Spitfire and is very studied in it). I asked for proof it was used more than the missions mentioned previous, I still havent seen it.

 

Conclusion, I would love to see any and all options that were available at the time (fuel, weapons, Marks), but some things just dont take priority, no matter what you might believe they will do for you. Damage Model, era specific units, and some things others mentioned are way more important to the sim right now.

[OutOnTheOP]

PS Part 2, if I was a German pilot in MP, I would try and help the Spitfire guys to get their +25lbs boost option, and then sit back watching Spits blow engines in stall fights, make a couple weeks of easier kills until they learned their lesson ;)

 

I am very, very skeptical of how ED calculated the engine failure chances, and what historical data they polled to get the failure rates.

 

As far as I can tell, they looked the officially sanctioned power ratings provided by the respective air forces, and took them as gospel. Feel free to surprise me and inform me that they did an actual metallurgical analysis of the components of historical engines, then did a physics-based stress simulation of all component parts of the engine in real-time. I suppose all that computing overhead would explain the persistent frame-rate performance issues... :music_whistling:

 

The problem with that is that the higher rating does not mean the probability of failure of a DB605 at it's maximum authorized rating was *actually* the same as the chances of a Merlin failing at it's maximum authorized rating. I would strongly suspect the struggling Luftwaffe in the last years of the war were willing to approve far riskier boost levels than was the RAF or USAAF... but it doesn't seem to be reflected in DCS, where the Merlin seems much more fragile.

 

As to Merlin-engine pilots blowing their engines... ok, maybe, but give us that chance. Having the option to take that risk should be our choice as a pilot. Having the extra power means you can start the fight at faster speed, you lose speed less swiftly, and you can keep the fight at a higher airspeed (unless you're an idiot that goes straight to "stick-in-gut-turn"). By having more power, you have more speed, which means more airflow, which means more cooling, which means.... more power. It's a positive feedback loop. Having that extra couple hundred horsepower really *is* important.

 

....and it's already modeled for the Mustang: a (fairly rare) damage state is (or at least was, a few updates back) the loss of manifold pressure regulation, which then allows the aircraft to go up to 75" MP. What has my experience been with fighting in that state? Exactly what I mentioned above: that the power lets me stay faster, that the speed keeps the engine cooler, and that positive feedback loop gives the Mustang a huge boost in combat performance. Would it help the Spitfire that much? Perhaps not; I haven't flown the Spit extensively enough to have a good feel for the way the cooling system acts at different power/airspeed settings, and the Spitfire wing design is optimal for low-speed turn-fighting anyhow, so it probably wouldn't benefit from the higher boost nearly so much as would the Mustang.

Edited January 28, 2017 by OutOnTheOP

[MaxDamage]

I like the spitfire choice. But the bf109 should be limited to ~1.7 ata for realism and balance i think. They dont even need to remake the plane, just limit its power.

 

It doesnt matter the name of a spitfire or a bf109, it only matters how much ata and lbs they hqave in their engine.

Edited January 28, 2017 by MaxDamage

[Vmax]

I like the spitfire choice. But the bf109 should be limited to ~1.7 ata for realism and balance i think. They dont even need to remake the plane, just limit its power.

 

It doesnt matter the name of a spitfire or a bf109, it only matters how much ata and lbs they hqave in their engine.

 

the kurfurst used the DB605 D series, which boost was 1.8ata. 1.7ata was used in the DB 605AM/ASM. So no, 1.7ata wouldn't be historical.

[OutOnTheOP]

the kurfurst used the DB605 D series, which boost was 1.8ata. 1.7ata was used in the DB 605AM/ASM. So no, 1.7ata wouldn't be historical.

 

No, but limiting the availability of MW50 via mission editor would make a huge difference for online play. But... then the luftwhiners get their turn to gripe and moan about how unfair it is.

 

Personally, I wish we could just go back to the days when it was only Doras vs Mustangs, because that's actually a pretty fair match-up. The Dora has a tiny edge in low altitude speed, roll, and weaponry, the Mustang has a tiny advantage in situational awareness, gunnery, and turning. And the dogfights were fantastic.

 

The introduction of Kurfursts saw the devolution of the online scene into 3:1 Luftwaffe gang-up vulching (at least, as of the last time I bothered checking in on it a few months back). Wow, such fun. Much happy.

Edited January 28, 2017 by OutOnTheOP

[Talisman_VR]

Kinda like turning a blind eye to what kind of missions +25lbs was generally used for, and what Yo-Yo has stated would most likely happen if you went all hog wild on that boost in combat such as a stall fight. I am quite aware what the evidence is, I know what it was used for, I know the squadrons it was used with, and their general tasks during that time period, I also know the owner of TFC knows this information and seeing as his job revolves around these aircraft and their history, I am pretty confident he knows a little bit, not to mention once again Yo-Yo (whose favorite aircraft happens to be the Spitfire and is very studied in it). I asked for proof it was used more than the missions mentioned previous, I still havent seen it.

 

Conclusion, I would love to see any and all options that were available at the time (fuel, weapons, Marks), but some things just dont take priority, no matter what you might believe they will do for you. Damage Model, era specific units, and some things others mentioned are way more important to the sim right now.

 

Hi SiThSpAwN,

 

About the stall fighting point you have made. I think we can agree that stall fighting is not the way to go with the Spitfire; defiantly not the way to get the best from this aircraft in a dog fight. The engine can be broken with the current 18lbs boost very easily if stall fighting is attempted, so I would not expect people 'in the know' to suddenly start trying to stall fight the Spitfire just because 25lbs boost was available. Sure, novices may wreck the engine trying to stall fight, but they can easily make that mistake right now with the 18lbs boost.

 

As for 150 Octane use, from previous posts and links to references, clearly Air Defense Great Britain (ADGB) used it and so did 2nd TAF. If the ED Team wish to differentiate between mission types to decide whether to provide 150 Octane fuel versions of an aircraft, then I fully respect that is their prerogative.

However, I would suggest that ADGB aircraft were not just used to defend against the V1 threat, they were there to defend against conventional aircraft as well. I find it difficult to think that ADGB aircraft airborne with 150 Octane on patrol or scrambled over the English Channel were not allowed to attack conventional enemy aircraft in the sector they were defending. I also find it difficult to think that all the different aircraft types across ADGB that were using 150 Octane were only used in anti diver (V1) operations. Also, we know that ADGB aircraft took part in missions over France during and after D-Day (as well as other missions on the continent). Conclusion: Given that 2nd TAF used 150 Octane covering the period when the DCS 109K and 190-D were active and ADGB used to the same fuel earlier to defend England, which is to be included on the upcoming DCS map, I suggest that it could be considered reasonable to have a 25lbs Spitfire.

I had better not post again on this topic or you will be getting fed up with me, but I hope not :)

Good luck to the ED Team with the WWII project.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[NineLine]

wall of text

 

So by your response I understand you are not sure, and not familiar enough with the Spitfire to say one way or another.

 

This is why I dont get why you dont trust 1) a person who owns, flies and maintains not only many different Marks of Spitfires over the years but many other WWII birds. 2) A professional engineer who has been building FMs for many many years with great success.

 

Its not happening right now. Its just a fact you need to grasp a hold of. If we get maps that allow long range recon, or V1 intercepts and the likes, I will be the first one in line fighting for that, but for now, look to other things that are going to tighten the playing field.

[DefaultFace]

It's not really like the playing field isn't tight as it is. The only advantage of the 109 is a bit of speed. And that speed is certainly not easy to make use of. Try running away from a spit with equal energy.... good luck cause it aint no cakewalk.

[NineLine]

Read up on it, I am sure they weren't told to avoid enemy fighters at all costs, heck the recon flights were armed recon. The issue is for the fights we have right now in DCS, it probably wont do you much good, and the FM builder, and big wig at TFC dont see it as needed right now. I researched it myself, even after Wags told me Nick Grey said no way, because I wanted to be sure myself, and I see all the same info, +25lbs was for special operations.

 

Hi SiThSpAwN,

 

About the stall fighting point you have made. I think we can agree that stall fighting is not the way to go with the Spitfire; defiantly not the way to get the best from this aircraft in a dog fight. The engine can be broken with the current 18lbs boost very easily if stall fighting is attempted, so I would not expect people 'in the know' to suddenly start trying to stall fight the Spitfire just because 25lbs boost was available. Sure, novices may wreck the engine trying to stall fight, but they can easily make that mistake right now with the 18lbs boost.

 

As for 150 Octane use, from previous posts and links to references, clearly Air Defense Great Britain (ADGB) used it and so did 2nd TAF. If the ED Team wish to differentiate between mission types to decide whether to provide 150 Octane fuel versions of an aircraft, then I fully respect that is their prerogative.

However, I would suggest that ADGB aircraft were not just used to defend against the V1 threat, they were there to defend against conventional aircraft as well. I find it difficult to think that ADGB aircraft airborne with 150 Octane on patrol or scrambled over the English Channel were not allowed to attack conventional enemy aircraft in the sector they were defending. I also find it difficult to think that all the different aircraft types across ADGB that were using 150 Octane were only used in anti diver (V1) operations. Also, we know that ADGB aircraft took part in missions over France during and after D-Day (as well as other missions on the continent). Conclusion: Given that 2nd TAF used 150 Octane covering the period when the DCS 109K and 190-D were active and ADGB used to the same fuel earlier to defend England, which is to be included on the upcoming DCS map, I suggest that it could be considered reasonable to have a 25lbs Spitfire.

I had better not post again on this topic or you will be getting fed up with me, but I hope not :)

Good luck to the ED Team with the WWII project.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman