Gazelle Flight Dynamics... Again.

[MAD_MIKE]

Its long time ago. Thats im talking about)

[FragBum]

Dude... All special options is ok

 

What version are you flying because this it not how it flies for me, either this is rigged or please detail how to get into these states.

 

Holbeach ?

 

MAD_MIKE ?

 

 

thanks

[MAD_MIKE]

It's actual version.

[Fredo_69]

Dude... All special options is ok

Yes, that FM is so simplified it's tragic. Unworthy of DCS...

[shagrat]

Yes, that FM is so simplified it's tragic. Unworthy of DCS...

It was much better on release, feels like the "easier controls" or as if the SAS is always on... Very strange!

[Scarecrow84]

Hawkeye had a good idea with that FM poll...too bad it devolved into another dead end "discussion". I would like to be able to revert to the original one too.

 

The Polychop guy stated recently that the FM is realistic.

 

There you have it. It isn't going to be improved.

 

We need to move on and look forward to the Bo105 from Oliver's new company.

 

Who knows how long that will take, so why not enjoy the Bell47 that was just released?

 

It would be awesome to get some multiplayer servers up with it included.

[gunterlund21]

I wonder what the relationship is with the independent developers and DCS. I have to believe there are alot of resources within the DCS group that PolyChop could tap into for expertise with the flight model. Can they contract Bilsimtek or Eagle to review the model and provide assistance. Do these developers interact like that? I would think its in Eagles best interest to assist as these products are all part their branding. Just a thought.

[shagrat]

I wonder what the relationship is with the independent developers and DCS. I have to believe there are alot of resources within the DCS group that PolyChop could tap into for expertise with the flight model. Can they contract Bilsimtek or Eagle to review the model and provide assistance. Do these developers interact like that? I would think its in Eagles best interest to assist as these products are all part their branding. Just a thought.

 

The weird thing is, they had the flight model in a very good state on early access release! A little tweaking an doptimizing left maybe, but very lifelike.

 

Yeah, a lot of people complained it was toooooo difficult to fly,yaddayadda, but it was not "game-like" or felt simplified like this...

 

The last tweak I remember, was the adjustment for the ground collision, which introduced a bit less "twitchiness" on the yaw (pedals).

You still got easily into a vortex ring state, even with all SAS on and you could quickly pull a bit too hard on the cyclic to make her shudder and break out...:joystick:

 

Now you can break out of VRS in Auto-Hover(!) whenever you like, by just pulling collective?

 

I really wonder what happened here? I flew the Gazelle occasionally with SAS and AP on, so I put it down to stabilization doing its job.

 

After carefully testing the behaviour from MAD_Mikes video, I want my "old" Gazelle FM back, please... I rather fight a handful of difficult controls, than this.:cry:

[Whisper]

I wonder what the relationship is with the independent developers and DCS. I have to believe there are alot of resources within the DCS group that PolyChop could tap into for expertise with the flight model. Can they contract Bilsimtek or Eagle to review the model and provide assistance. Do these developers interact like that? I would think its in Eagles best interest to assist as these products are all part their branding. Just a thought.

 

From what I understand, no, there isn't much communication, not of this sort, at least. For example, Poly discovered the new network engine (which broke their multicrew) AFTER it was released and the Gazelle was unusable by then. Everybody is hitting on Poly, but everything isn't that black & white.

[Esac_mirmidon]

And even with that is the only helicopter with multicrew ( limited ).

[MAD_MIKE]

Old early access FM was the same, just not has had few scripts. Need to starting FM over.

[Esac_mirmidon]

What scripts are you talking about?

[MAD_MIKE]

On early videos Gazelle has had Black shark cockpit...

[TripRodriguez]

I have to keep reminding myself that "fun to fly" should be enough to keep me from letting myself feel really bummed out about the Gazelle multi-crew SimPit project I'm still working on. I was committed pretty hard before I learned that the Gazelle flight model is totally sub-par or at the least very incomplete.

 

Here is my main panel:

 

I've got that built, collective grip and head, rotor brake and fuel flow assembly built, both seats, replica Gazelle/EC stick grip, and the shell for all the panels.

[Whisper]

That's the problem, people are bashing so insanely hard that you'd think the thing is 100% broken.

It's not. I'm sorry if that offends some here, but to me, the fact that every single return from actual Gaz pilots are saying that it's very near the real thing is showing that, despite its obvious flaws, the DCS Gaz is getting it.

Some choose to focus on the flaws. When you don't, the chopper behaves (mostly, I agree there are little missing things) like it should.

OTOH some response from Polychop portraying an ideal FM that does not need a single change, is indeed worrying. That said, I don't know myself what I'd like to see best, multicrew fixes, or FM...

Edited April 30, 2017 by Whisper

[myHelljumper]

Where did they say that they are not going to improve it ?

[FragBum]

That's the problem, people are bashing so insanely hard that you'd think the thing is 100% broken.

It's not. I'm sorry if that offends some here, but to me, the fact that every single return from actual Gaz pilots are saying that it's very near the real thing is showing that, despite its obvious flaws, the DCS Gaz is getting it.

Some choose to focus on the flaws. When you don't, the chopper behaves (mostly, I agree there are little missing things) like it should.

OTOH some response from Polychop portraying an ideal FM that does not need a single change, is indeed worrying. That said, I don't know myself what I'd like to see best, multicrew fixes, or FM...

 

Agree, flaws and exploits, for me the Gazelle and Huey, okay the only things I have flown in DCS, really at a basic level seem to fly the same for me. Yes there are differences mostly to do with response based on weight and power, toque as well the Huey has some balls.

 

I also understand some of the anguish that the flight model isn't perfect, however if it's as good as it gets and it's only going to get better with cooperation I don't see the point of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I've done 200+ hours on the Gazelle and no matter how you slice and dice it 0.25c an hour is a fantastic premium for the engagement (VR). The Huey and I go way back and they are both great fun to fly, thanks Guys. :thumbup:

Edited April 30, 2017 by FragBum
<typo>

[sorcer3r]

In MP combat missions I have never seen a Gazelle pilot do crazy unrealistic stuff. Everyone flies the gazelle more or less realistic.

What I see very often in MP is that Huey pilots flying way beyond the engine overheat limits (full speed at full loadout etc...).

 

Huey is long time out of beta and still has is issues while Gazelle has multicrew and is still WIP.

At least patience is needed in this forum section here. ;)

[shagrat]

I am not saying it is totally "broken". I was just astonished, that compared to the original release flight model, where a veery noticeable VRS was present, and you couldn't just pull collective and recover, etc.

That means some tweaks and optimization has made things worse, than they were.

Not that the whole FM is unrealistic or wrong.

 

I enjoy flying the Gazelle very much. Guess the most of it is pretty close to the real thing, but if you go from "normal stick-to-the-operations-manual" flying to the edge, where VRS, asymmetric load and risky maneuvers kick in, then it seems the tweaks eliminated all the risky parts.

 

And sorry Mad_mike, it wasn't like that on release. I flew it on day one, and I had a hard time to handle the VRS and instability in turns, where you often quickly dropped and couldn't recover.

 

My first auto-hover with auto-collective off got me quickly into a VRS and I pulled max collective instinctively, and it did not stop VRS, but slammed me into the ground, like it should.

Took me a couple hours to train and immediately deactivate auto-hover if encountering VRS before anything else, to be able to move out of the disturbed air. So the original FM on release had a lot more realism, than what I tested in detail with SAS off, after I saw your video.

 

I hope after the break-up of PolyChop into PolyChop and Poly-Dynamics they manage to get to the FM and Netcode etc. and optimize it again.

It still is an awesome helo to fly.

[Esac_mirmidon]

And what about the official statement that entering VRS in the Gazelle M is very hard because the special blades?

 

Is false?

 

Polychop sources from Arme del Air are false?

[Vitormouraa]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I did read a few pages, I know the module has its bugs, which I've seen by myself, I tried flying it with a friend of mine, using multicrew, and we had so many problems, not about flight model itself (Since I wasn't actually flying it), but other bugs. This aircraft is very interesting, it's not my favorite helo, I wish I could fly it more, but I'm sorry, I don't want to offend anyone here, I just can't handle the issues that I always see, trying to fly the module, I refuse to fly it in the current state, And I'm not talking about the FM.

 

I flew the Gazelle during the initial release, I always thought the FM was kinda strange (not entirely correct), but that was my opinion, I could fly it without much problems, since that was just a feeling, not an actual problem. But these days it's basically impossible to fly it without having at least a bug going on, if that makes sense...

 

I really want to ask you guys a question, I'm being honest, not trolling anyone, so please, take this question seriously...

 

What's the future of the module? Seeing all these problems with bugs and legal issues that the developers are having right now?

 

I don't want to sound rude, but I'm just being honest, and saying what I feel about it...

[TripRodriguez]

@Whisper As far as I know we only have PolyChop's word that real Gazelle pilots said it was good. We (the community) are trying to get some Gazelle pilot opinions ourselves (got an iron in the fire on that one).

 

@Vitormouraa We've been told that PolyChop (or maybe Poly-Dynamics I guess) are actively working on the Gazelle still and we've seen some evidence of that in patches. We've also been promised that once the legal issues are resolved things will go more or less back to normal.

 

I think a lot of the reason this conversation always gets so heated is frustration with the whole communications blackout that doesn't seem to make any sense. I've never heard of a company completely shutting off all communication to customers and support of their product for the duration of legal proceedings like this.

[TripRodriguez]

My take on the Gazelle as it sits:

 

It's fun to fly, but like "game" mode. I really appreciate that they have multi-crew (somewhat) working. The FM is not up to DCS standards, but will hopefully be fixed.

 

My take on this whole argument:

 

PolyChop's lack of communication with us is unacceptable. I don't believe that their "legal issues" could possibly make talking to us on the forums impossible. The one post I saw on this forum that appeared to be from a PC dev (though I can't confirm it was) responding to criticism of the module was whiny and unprofessional. I can't refer back to it because the thread was apparently deleted.

 

I hope that the Poly whatever Gazelle team we wind up with when the legal issues are resolved will be better.

Edited April 30, 2017 by TripRodriguez

[shagrat]

And what about the official statement that entering VRS in the Gazelle M is very hard because the special blades?

 

Is false?

 

Polychop sources from Arme del Air are false?

I am not talking about "entering" a VRS. I talk about getting out of a VRS...

 

After(!) you entered VRS, you are required to move the rotor disc out of the disturbed air creating the vortex ring.

If you pull collective you just add energy...

That was what happened, with a fully loaded Gazelle on release, when you let her "fall" behind a ridgeline.

It went down and entered VRS (mind 4 HOT, dust and IR-Cover, and a full tank).

You couldn't just pull collective to recover. Now you can.

 

I have no problem if you have difficulty to enter VRS in the first place, but physics tell us, if you are falling vertically out of the sky with negative G's that make you get close to a red-out you should have a VRS and can't just pull collective to recover. You need to move at least a rotorspan to any direction. :dunno:

[shagrat]

@Whisper As far as I know we only have PolyChop's word that real Gazelle pilots said it was good. We (the community) are trying to get some Gazelle pilot opinions ourselves (got an iron in the fire on that one).

 

@Vitormouraa We've been told that PolyChop (or maybe Poly-Dynamics I guess) are actively working on the Gazelle still and we've seen some evidence of that in patches. We've also been promised that once the legal issues are resolved things will go more or less back to normal.

 

I think a lot of the reason this conversation always gets so heated is frustration with the whole communications blackout that doesn't seem to make any sense. I've never heard of a company completely shutting off all communication to customers and support of their product for the duration of legal proceedings like this.

According to Olli's info Polychop's working on the Gazelle. Pat and Borchi_2B in particular

Poly-Dynamics is the new company that develops the BO-105 and later the Stuka. Basically Olli and also in part Pat.

 

The legal issues seem to be solely about the company split and legal requirement for finishing the fiscal year, etc. so there should be no impact other then the communication break we had, until this was solved.

 

If we are lucky PolyChop will inform us, about the next steps with the Gazelle, as Olli/Poly-Dynamics did about the BO-105 and Stuka.

 

EDIT in case somebody missed the announcement:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=186785

Edited April 30, 2017 by shagrat