MiG vs Sabre-- Climb Rate

[SeaQuark]

I was always under the impression that the MiG could reliably outclimb the Sabre, that that was one of its key advantages.

 

Flying in multiplayer recently, that hasn't seemed to be the case. MiG pilots mentioned the MiG was feeling "sluggish." So we did a quick test, me in the F-86, Werewolf in the MiG-15:

 

 

 

Started at even altitude, matched speed at ~.7 mach, then full throttle and aggressive climb. To my surprise, there seemed to be essentially no difference-- the planes stayed at about even distance the whole time, all the way to and through the stall.

 

We tried again, starting from about ~.5 mach, then full throttle + aggressive climb: [skip to 04:10 in video] same deal. Maybe the Sabre stalled out a tad quicker on that one, but there really seemed to be no major difference in climb rate. Certainly not enough to make any difference in a dogfight. Meanwhile, the Sabre could still reliably out-dive the MiG.

 

What's going on here? Am I crazy for thinking the MiG was supposed to outclimb the Sabre? Or is there a bug in the flight model?

[Pocket Sized]

You're doing zoom climbs, not sustained climbs. The airplanes perform comparably (I'm guessing) because the Sabre's lower drag compensates for its inferior TWR.

 

Next time, tell the MiG to maintain best climb speed (700kmh TAS). It climbs like an absolute beast all the way to 40,000 ft. I'm not sure what the best climb speed is for the sabre, though.

[71st_AH Rob]

Best climb speed varies with alt and configuration. For the Sabre climb schedules can be found in T.O. 1F-86F-1 in the appendices for a standard day.

[Pocket Sized]

Like this?

[Danneskjold]

Historically the Mig-15 (no bis) could outclimb the F-86A and E, and could outperform the sabre at high altitudes (where most of the engagements at least started).

 

However with the big boost in power, as well as the new 6-3 wing, the F-86F basically should outperform the Mig-15BIS in everything, except at higher altitudes where it matches it. Especially considering the extreme negative effects of the Mig-15 in transonic regions.

[71st_AH Rob]

Like this?

 

Yes

[71st_AH Rob]

Historically the Mig-15 (no bis) could outclimb the F-86A and E, and could outperform the sabre at high altitudes (where most of the engagements at least started).

 

However with the big boost in power, as well as the new 6-3 wing, the F-86F basically should outperform the Mig-15BIS in everything, except at higher altitudes where it matches it. Especially considering the extreme negative effects of the Mig-15 in transonic regions.

 

Another good point since the version of the Mig-15 and the Sabre we have never engaged in combat over Korea, the anecdotes we get do not necessarily apply.

[SeaQuark]

Interesting. My conviction that the MiG could strongly outclimb the Sabre must've come from a mix of earlier historical anecdotes + fighting the the over-simplified AI model. It's too bad we don't have the option to swap out our Sabre with earlier variants, as I would be very interested in simulating the early days of the Korean conflict.

[71st_AH Rob]

Interesting. My conviction that the MiG could strongly outclimb the Sabre must've come from a mix of earlier historical anecdotes + fighting the the over-simplified AI model. It's too bad we don't have the option to swap out our Sabre with earlier variants, as I would be very interested in simulating the early days of the Korean conflict.

 

We would need a Mig to match it then because the one we have arrived in Korea too late for combat and was improved (hence the bis designation) from the earlier version that saw combat, however the Sabre we have is not too far off the last models to fight in Korea when the kill ratio was ~10:1.

 

There are many misconceptions based on earlier reported combat experiences that continue to persist, for example the ineffectiveness of the .50 cal and that was true if the A models that deployed with the 4th FIW. Those a/c were equipped with the M2 and they were ineffective. They were fairly rapidly rearmed with the M3 that could fire the M20 APIT round and it was lethal against the Mig, just watch the gun cam footage.

 

I could not sum it up better than this author

 

"The introduction of the F into combat in Korea went a long way to closing the high-altitude performance gap between the Sabre and the MiG-15. No longer could the MiGs zoom and climb through Sabre formations with impunity, and the Sabre pilots could now close on the MiGs at any altitude, even during a climb."

[javelina1]

"The introduction of the F into combat in Korea went a long way to closing the high-altitude performance gap between the Sabre and the MiG-15. No longer could the MiGs zoom and climb through Sabre formations with impunity, and the Sabre pilots could now close on the MiGs at any altitude, even during a climb."

 

Yikes! explains a bit here (for those MiG drivers).

[SeaQuark]

We would need a Mig to match it then because the one we have arrived in Korea too late for combat and was improved (hence the bis designation) from the earlier version that saw combat, however the Sabre we have is not too far off the last models to fight in Korea when the kill ratio was ~10:1.

 

Source on the bis being too late for combat? Because a quick glance online says that the Mig-15bis was introduced early 1950 and saw a a large amount of combat in Korea. According to the source below the model the Chinese received was the bis model, and it even saw action at the tail end of the Chinese Civil War, pre-dating outbreak of the Korean conflict.

 

http://www.skytamer.com/MiG-15bis.html

 

I have also heard frequently from other DCS folk that the bis is in fact a historically correct model, it's our particular Sabre that's too late for Korea (as is made obvious by the presence of GAR-8 missiles).

[Invisibull]

The third F-86F production batch was the NA-191, built in California under a contract approved on August 5, 1952. These were delivered as F-86F-30-NA (52-4305 through -5163) and as F-86F-35-NA (52-5164 through -5271). Deliveries began in October of 1952 and were completed by May of 1954. 967 were built

 

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p86_8.html

[71st_AH Rob]

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p86_8.html

 

Right, hostilities ended 27 Jul 53 and the 107 F-86F-35 were constructed in the spring of '54, although they are essentially the same as the -30 which did serve there. They were also all intended for Europe I understand because of the ability to deliver a 'special store'

 

As for the Mig-15 vs Mig-15bis I will need to find the source but I believe that the 'bis' was first rolled out to the Soviet squadrons and priority didn't shift to Korea until the later F-86F's began to arrive and to really dominate the sky's. By the time they arrived the truce was in place. I'll see what I can find when I get home.

[Skwabie]

U guys need to read up, Mig-15bis was in action over Korea since somewhere in latter half of 1951. The best USAF had then was F-86E.

 

The Chinese squadrons received them late so probably matched the F-86F introduction date somewhat.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Skwabie

[Werewolf1025]

just to add to the conversation, it seems the Mig-15bis is experiencing a bug which is inducing huge amount of drag when the ailerons are deflected. This could definitely effect the climb performance if you are deflecting the ailerons while climbing. I've made a video demonstrating the drag issue.

 

[Alphazulu]

We would need a Mig to match it then because the one we have arrived in Korea too late for combat and was improved (hence the bis designation) from the earlier version that saw combat, however the Sabre we have is not too far off the last models to fight in Korea when the kill ratio was ~10:1.

 

There are many misconceptions based on earlier reported combat experiences that continue to persist, for example the ineffectiveness of the .50 cal and that was true if the A models that deployed with the 4th FIW. Those a/c were equipped with the M2 and they were ineffective. They were fairly rapidly rearmed with the M3 that could fire the M20 APIT round and it was lethal against the Mig, just watch the gun cam footage.

 

I could not sum it up better than this author

 

"The introduction of the F into combat in Korea went a long way to closing the high-altitude performance gap between the Sabre and the MiG-15. No longer could the MiGs zoom and climb through Sabre formations with impunity, and the Sabre pilots could now close on the MiGs at any altitude, even during a climb."

 

 

 

 

Thank you Rob! This is exactly what I was saying in my head before I got to your post. So many of views that people hold when comparing aircraft capabilities often don't account for the variant of the aircraft. This is the same reason why stats are so screwed and kill ratio's are debated and go back and forth, because these stats change when the variant of the aircraft changes.

 

This exact same issue occurs with the Spitfire and BF-109. When asking which plane is better the answer depends on the month and year you are talking about. It went back and forth with each aircraft countering the others advantages. So, in this case when someone tries to compare the F-86 and the Mig-15 you will get widely varying results. The question really needs to be "what is better the F-86F-35 or the Mig-15bis? Historically all the other info is interesting but has no relevance in this specific case.

 

I don't dislike the Mig-15, however, in this situation my opinion is that the F-86F-35 is superior to the Mig-15bis. The stronger engine is one thing but one of the biggest advantages of the later model F-86 is the "flying tail". This is key for dealing with near mac 1 speeds. The soviets did not implement a flying tail until after the Mig-17bis.

[71st_AH Rob]

[Wazoo]

So.... question.

 

I'm new to the F-86, but have extensive experience with other aircraft. I'm wondering if the performance I'm seeing in dogfighting AI flown Mig15bis' is correct.... or is there something about the Sabre that I'm missing.

 

I set up 1v1 against the Mig and converge from 8nm out. We pass head-on and the fight is on.

 

However, for the life of me, if I manage to work my way behind him and we are in a tight turning fight, he just goes vertical and rockets skyward. No matter what I do at this point (lead, lag or pure pursuit), I end up floundering into a stall while he effortlessly loops over me.

 

Put another way, do others notice the AI to have almost limitless energy? I'm pretty good at managing my energy, but am finding it next to impossible to keep behind him when he goes vertical.

 

Any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks!

[Exorcet]

So.... question.

 

I'm new to the F-86, but have extensive experience with other aircraft. I'm wondering if the performance I'm seeing in dogfighting AI flown Mig15bis' is correct.... or is there something about the Sabre that I'm missing.

 

I set up 1v1 against the Mig and converge from 8nm out. We pass head-on and the fight is on.

 

However, for the life of me, if I manage to work my way behind him and we are in a tight turning fight, he just goes vertical and rockets skyward. No matter what I do at this point (lead, lag or pure pursuit), I end up floundering into a stall while he effortlessly loops over me.

 

Put another way, do others notice the AI to have almost limitless energy? I'm pretty good at managing my energy, but am finding it next to impossible to keep behind him when he goes vertical.

 

Any tips or suggestions?

 

Thanks!

 

 

MiG AI overperforms, but if it starts doing infinite loops, keep up your energy and you can bring guns on it. If it gets behind you, climb at speed and it will eventually stall out.

[Squiffy]

Yup, all of the above.

 

The Sabre is more slippery than the MiG. If you are above 250 kts, you should be able to zoom climb pretty well. Below that, the MiG will stomp all over you. If he starts looping to fight in the vertical follow him if you have over 200 kts airspeed and be careful over the top. Here is where swept wing fighters get pretty squirrely and you need to use rudder and pump and dump with whatever E you have left. I find the Sabre FM tends to roll out near stall, ruining your tracking but you can stay with him. It is here where you will eventually close the distance and can shower him with 50 cal. It may take 3 or 4 good hits to smoke him. If you stay with him he may punch out without any more hits. Go ahead and stall with him over the top. This is also where slats would help a ton but you can still do it. I have been practicing a good bit on invulnerable settings and it's kinda weird to take a couple banging cannon rounds in the tail while doing all this, but it is good practice. ;) I find the AI much more challenging in turning fights, especially pursuing a flight mate. Another thing. The roll center on the Sabre is below the cockpit, about the wing spar and this can be frustrating when trying to place you pipper in the right spot to land hits. The MiG is more centered and that is an advantage at low speed, close range, vertical/inverted ;)

[Wazoo]

All great advice! Thanks a ton.

 

BTW... If anyone wants to help out a new F86 pilot, I've attached a Track file of a vertical turning fight I got into with a Mig15 and ultimately lost.

 

Any input greatly appreciate. :)

 

*NOTE - I was over the trk file size by .01 MB's... so I placed the track file in a zip.

Sabre v Mig.zip

[Lixma 06]

You were doing OK till you lost sight at around 5mins.

 

I'd dump the sidewinders though - they're just dead-weight in a fight like that.

[Wazoo]

Yeah... I was in VR and lost sight when I started to stall and didn't correct correctly.

 

Man. This jet is beautiful in VR.

[Harley Davidson]

It seems that when the Sabre and Mig 15 were made by belsimtek they put in all the best features of the Mig-15 and majored on the worst features of the Sabre.... I know I have tacview to show this.. Sustained 7g+ for the mig? not likely, a snapshot that killed me from a range of 3500ft? not likely, endless vertical looping without so much of a fart from the mig? not likely..I have entered a flat scissors with the mig and for over 3 years i've had this module I've NEVER beat the mig and got BEHIND it, NEVER.... try it!

 

 

Anyway, thats what we have and we just have to make the best of it... I love this era and these aircraft...

Edited February 4, 2019 by Harley Davidson

[Chimango]

We would need a Mig to match it then because the one we have arrived in Korea too late for combat and was improved (hence the bis designation) from the earlier version that saw combat, however the Sabre we have is not too far off the last models to fight in Korea when the kill ratio was ~10:1."

 

You got it all wrong. MiG-15bis were present in Korea as early as 1951 and they gave a real headache to the USAF and their allies thanks to the superior performance of those Migs against Sabres A/E and the great skill and experience of soviet aces, all veterans from WW2. While they were there in numbers the k/d ratio there was closer to 1,3:1 against Sabres and a lot bigger (huge margin) agains all other NATO aircraft.

 

10-1 k/d ratio? Yes, in Hollywood movies and western propaganda only.

 

Sabre lovers (i love the plane too) must be thankful that Belsimtek decided to model a Sabre F-86-F35 that wasn´t even present in Korea (being the F-30 type a late arrival and the best possible F-86 you can have in KTO) otherwise, MiG-15 bis would be flying circles around and above you.

 

PS. haven´t been flying MiG-15 vs Sabres in a while, but if you want to succeed in a vertical fight against a MiG-15, don´t let it become a slow fight cause the constant climb from the MiG will outperform you:

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Chimango