3rd Parties - confindence in

[NineLine]

I'm sorry, I don't see that happening here.

 

You saw that I said I wasnt talking about this specific thread right?

 

If you did, then most trashing will get removed by moderation when its against forum rules.

 

And lots more around the net, much worse.

[NineLine]

The current Huey product page. The bullet list is gone.

 

 

As for the later update. It's been four years and four more modules and that update is still pending.

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/helicopters/huey/

[nrgized]

I cant speak for VEAO. Personally I can totally understand peoples frustration TOTALLY. What is ED doing... have you seen any other products from VEAO? Its probably a good reason why. I cant say that for sure, but I would assume they need to fix what they have before getting anything else out, least makes sense to me.

 

 

 

The thread is about confidence in 3rd parties. I cant tell you what my personally feelings are on each one. I can tell you that a number of them are working hard to fix issues. I know there are some I would personally be leery of jumping head first into again.

 

 

 

ED cant control things like the splits we have seen. And assuming that its ED's fault for not catching that before doesnt work either.

 

 

 

I am trying to tell you, the best approach is to talk with your wallets, thats what I started out saying. If you dont want early access, dont buy early access, you will find out pretty quick if the module is something you want to get into or not from others.

 

 

 

And my very first response to your first post layed out that using our wallets isn't the solution because the amount of people that will purchase anything out weighs the rest.

 

It requires mommy and daddy, ED in this case, to step in and start taking more action against the developers.

 

If ED has puts the breaks on VAEO great. But what about the four modules later BST and the Huey?

 

Oh that's right they are helping on the hornet no conflict there huh?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gladman]

I cant speak for VEAO. Personally I can totally understand peoples frustration TOTALLY. What is ED doing... have you seen any other products from VEAO? Its probably a good reason why. I cant say that for sure, but I would assume they need to fix what they have before getting anything else out, least makes sense to me.

 

The thread is about confidence in 3rd parties. I cant tell you what my personally feelings are on each one. I can tell you that a number of them are working hard to fix issues. I know there are some I would personally be leery of jumping head first into again.

 

ED cant control things like the splits we have seen. And assuming that its ED's fault for not catching that before doesnt work either.

 

I am trying to tell you, the best approach is to talk with your wallets, thats what I started out saying. If you dont want early access, dont buy early access, you will find out pretty quick if the module is something you want to get into or not from others.

 

I already am. I bought the Mirage, that was the last time I bought beta. I think the term beta still applied at that time. No ED cannot control companies splitting but they can control a list and hold the 3rd parties to it. They can publicly post that list and have everyone informed. 3rd party confidence should start with ED. They are the ones who grant the status. They are the ones providing the base software. PR is to be honest the biggest and near only reason these topics are constantly at the top of the list. Just keep us better informed and there is no reason to guess.

[NineLine]

You keep stating there is an issue with BST, and I dont see it. They to bug fixing on all their modules, all their modules are high quality. Again, I think you are off base... even your switch bug appears to be fixed in internal and early access versions.

 

And my very first response to your first post layed out that using our wallets isn't the solution because the amount of people that will purchase anything out weighs the rest.

 

It requires mommy and daddy, ED in this case, to step in and start taking more action against the developers.

 

If ED has puts the breaks on VAEO great. But what about the four modules later BST and the Huey?

 

Oh that's right they are helping on the hornet no conflict there huh?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NineLine]

I already am. I bought the Mirage, that was the last time I bought beta. I think the term beta still applied at that time. No ED cannot control companies splitting but they can control a list and hold the 3rd parties to it. They can publicly post that list and have everyone informed. 3rd party confidence should start with ED. They are the ones who grant the status. They are the ones providing the base software. PR is to be honest the biggest and near only reason these topics are constantly at the top of the list. Just keep us better informed and there is no reason to guess.

 

Better informed on what though? ED can only comment really on their own stuff. 3rd parties need to update you on the progress of their own stuff.

[Mainstay]

I hear some very well made points from people here. I personally think that some of the 3d party devs are performing below the level they should.

And others have delivered beautiful products.

 

But like Sith said besides ED pulling the strings tighter on quality control to avoid issues with unfinished modules YOU are the ones that can keep the hand on the pocket aswell. I personally learned my lesson well with some of the studios.

 

On the other hand i think we should be careful not scare off people with potential to deliver a great quality product. That said, god bless afterburners and supercruise and i bid you goodnight !

[nrgized]

You keep stating there is an issue with BST, and I dont see it. They to bug fixing on all their modules, all their modules are high quality. Again, I think you are off base... even your switch bug appears to be fixed in internal and early access versions.

 

Sigh never get in an argument with the PR department.

 

I so don't know how to respond to the fact you don't see the ludicrousness that a simple inversion took 3+ years to fix. Or that it is but one of many issues.

 

Rarely is it huge problems that mess up your day. More often then not its death by a thousand cuts.

 

With that good day sir!

[BIGNEWY]

The crux of this is if you do not have confidence in a product dont spend your money, that is what we do as a consumer isn't it?

 

Personally I don't have an issue with any third party, it has been a steep learning curve for some, many have tried and failed completely, not even getting to release a product. I like to support the teams as best I can, either with my cash, or helping with testing and bug reports.

[NineLine]

Sigh never get in an argument with the PR department.

 

I so don't know how to respond to the fact you don't see the ludicrousness that a simple inversion took 3+ years to fix. Or that it is but one of many issues.

 

Rarely is it huge problems that mess up your day. More often then not its death by a thousand cuts.

 

With that good day sir!

 

I am sorry you are so disappointed in the Huey. Hope you can enjoy the rest of your day.

[aaron886]

The crux of this is if you do not have confidence in a product dont spend your money, that is what we do as consumer isn't it?

 

This argument has been made multiple times here, and while it has some weight, it does not extend to issues with undelivered features or persistent bugs. To some extent, it is reasonable for someone to trust that a company will deliver what they advertise, and that their payment is a contract. This is why most countries enforce (in varying degrees) laws that are intended to force businesses to deal ethically and deliver what they promise.

[NineLine]

Here is my last statement on this.

 

ED has upped the standards for early access and release. They cant speak for 3rd Parties, and things that made it out before that are on them to deal with.

 

You can be frustrated but you still need to be socially responsible with your communications on this forum towards anyone, dev, 3rd party or other community members.

 

Bugs get fixed as they can be, some smaller ones will fall through the cracks, they can even be fixed internally for a long time and are unable to be merged or they miss merge occasionally.

 

There is nothing else I can say on this more than I already have.

[BIGNEWY]

This argument has been made multiple times here, and while it has some weight, it does not extend to issues with undelivered features or persistent bugs. To some extent, it is reasonable for someone to trust that a company will deliver what they advertise, and that their payment is a contract. This is why most countries enforce (in varying degrees) laws that are intended to force businesses to deal ethically and deliver what they promise.

 

some features are not possible yet, and wont be until me get to the merge, does it mean a module is broken? no

 

I fly the HUEY nearly every night, does it bother me multicrew in MP is not finished yet, sure, but I know we will get there, it does not stop me flying or enjoy the aircraft.

 

When ED and third parties are ready to share info they will and do, usually it is when an item is complete and they have news to share. I don't think we can ask for anything more.

[Abburo]

My point was not referring to early access, but more about how the modules qualities varies in time.

Mig-21, Gazelle - both starts very good, the team members seems to work together. In time, modules quality degraded then shortly an announcement came stating a team splitting/divorce/whatever.

Hawk and C101 had some key members left their teams - modules were degraded.

 

Lately modules needs off the ground reworking... this might sounds great, as long as those team members will remain in place and they own what they are doing. If again they will leave, we might face another Hawk 3.0 version for example.

 

And this is just a signal for the 3rd parties more, to be more careful in setting up their goals, their teams and the most important to have a proper assessment of their capabilities. Their internal affairs should not lead to product degrading at all.

[BIGNEWY]

My point was not referring to early access, but more about how the modules qualities varies in time.

Mig-21, Gazelle - both starts very good, the team members seems to work together. In time, modules quality degraded then shortly an announcement came stating a team splitting/divorce/whatever.

Hawk and C101 had some key members left their teams - modules were degraded.

 

Lately modules needs off the ground reworking... this might sounds great, as long as those team members will remain in place and they own what they are doing. If again they will leave, we might face another Hawk 3.0 version for example.

 

And this is just a signal for the 3rd parties more, to be more careful in setting up their goals, their teams and the most important to have a proper assessment of their capabilities. Their internal affairs should not lead to product degrading at all.

 

As mentioned here the standards have changed since, ED listened to the feedback and corrected it.

 

Here is my last statement on this.

 

ED has upped the standards for early access and release. They cant speak for 3rd Parties, and things that made it out before that are on them to deal with.

 

regarding the HAWK the VEAO team know what they need to do, Chris from VEAO is working on the updated HAWK, I have been helping test and I am confident it will be better for it. But it takes time, that is the nature of the software business.

[Gladman]

Better informed on what though? ED can only comment really on their own stuff. 3rd parties need to update you on the progress of their own stuff.

 

So Sith, I tell ya, I have been in the quality control and asset integrity game for many years and in my industry we the owner of the assets do hold the 3rd party companies to the flame. We agree on a criteria based on owner requirement and industry standard. We check their work, we issue non-conformance reports or other, we review before release, and should an item fail in the future, we hold the 3rd party responsible through rework or charges.

Perhaps this is something not implemented in the software world but I see no reason it cannot be.

 

Lets use the Mirage and the infamous takeoff roll problem. The item was in beta. A complete list of items in a loose priority sequence could be created and posted in a section of the forum. I know that at that time the list would have been a long one but still, the purchasers of the product would understand what needed to be fixed in the eyes of ED and RAZBAM. The takeoff roll issue would for example be item number 32. Priority given to more prevalent problems or prior noted by ED, the customer, or RAZBAM. As the weeks progress, the list is updated and eventually item 32 is taken care of. Is everybody happy, no, but I know that myself, yes I most certainly would be.

The same could be done with ED on 2.5, Map X, L-39, Hornet, etc etc etc.

Its just a simple list. We the public get to know whats happening and see progress. No more vale of secrecy.

Part of it for myself comes down to what do I do with my group. If we are going to base ourselves on map X but see its item 72 on the list, well it gives us the ability to rethink. It helps the community.

[cichlidfan]

Publishing a list like you describe is never going to happen. The items that remain on the list for years would become a public embarrassment.

[BIGNEWY]

ED have tried to be more open in the past about progress and it has not worked out, which is why we only get to see information about the current product for release, but I wouldn't call it secrecy, just marketing, focusing on the next released product seems the best way to me.

 

The bugs, I do my best to get around as many as I can so do other testers, and also the ED team, we report it and it is given a priority assessment. These reports are not public and wont ever be.

[WRAITH]

 

some features are not possible yet, and wont be until me get to "THE MERGE", does it mean a module is broken? no

 

I fly the HUEY nearly every night, does it bother me multicrew in MP is not finished yet, sure, but I know we will get there, it does not stop me flying or enjoy the aircraft.

 

When ED and third parties are ready to share info they will and do, usually it is when an item is complete and they have news to share. I don't think we can ask for anything more.

 

 

Hello folks, interesting thread its partly why I suggested a "Development Plan & Road Map" TAB in Forum, here is link if interested - https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=186909

......... it would cover all this ..........but never mind me :dunno:

 

I'm keen to follow this community thread input and learn more.

 

Cheers all

 

:beer:

Edited May 2, 2017 by WRAITH

[Abburo]

Too much transparency is not good either. It simply cannot work due to customers individual understanding capability. As far as I am concern I really don't want to load my brain with another trouble ticket system... I got enough of them in my career :).

But I don't want to see an Yak3 shooting lasers while flying supersonic either :D

 

@Wraith: I don't want another charts about blue lines draw with red marker :)))

 

All I am looking for is about consistency.. if today this button is starting the engine, it should do same thing tomorrow and not be changed to pilot eject :)) (this example is just for emphasizing the ideea)

 

@Bignewy: thanks for heads up about raising the standards. Good to know.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Abburo

[BIGNEWY]

@Bignewy: thanks for heads up about raising the standards. Good to know.

 

 

No problem,

 

ED do listen, they have years of experience doing this in a very niche market. Many of us have been flying with them for years, have faith in that at least. Having opened up to third parties was new for ED and they have learnt lessons, from experience and from feedback, I see a bright future for our hobby.

[NineLine]

AGain, you are talking about 3rd Parties, ED doesnt have the manpower to track and report all bugs to the public, this is up to Razbam, or which ever 3rd Party in question. And as pointed out, a public list has more downsides than it does upsides.

 

QA of modules has been increased, we can report bugs on all modules. At the end of the day though, its the 3rd Parties that need to look after their products, and from what I can see most are making a good effort to do so, with a couple playing catch-up.

 

So Sith, I tell ya, I have been in the quality control and asset integrity game for many years and in my industry we the owner of the assets do hold the 3rd party companies to the flame. We agree on a criteria based on owner requirement and industry standard. We check their work, we issue non-conformance reports or other, we review before release, and should an item fail in the future, we hold the 3rd party responsible through rework or charges.

Perhaps this is something not implemented in the software world but I see no reason it cannot be.

 

Lets use the Mirage and the infamous takeoff roll problem. The item was in beta. A complete list of items in a loose priority sequence could be created and posted in a section of the forum. I know that at that time the list would have been a long one but still, the purchasers of the product would understand what needed to be fixed in the eyes of ED and RAZBAM. The takeoff roll issue would for example be item number 32. Priority given to more prevalent problems or prior noted by ED, the customer, or RAZBAM. As the weeks progress, the list is updated and eventually item 32 is taken care of. Is everybody happy, no, but I know that myself, yes I most certainly would be.

The same could be done with ED on 2.5, Map X, L-39, Hornet, etc etc etc.

Its just a simple list. We the public get to know whats happening and see progress. No more vale of secrecy.

Part of it for myself comes down to what do I do with my group. If we are going to base ourselves on map X but see its item 72 on the list, well it gives us the ability to rethink. It helps the community.

[Gladman]

AGain, you are talking about 3rd Parties, ED doesnt have the manpower to track and report all bugs to the public, this is up to Razbam, or which ever 3rd Party in question. And as pointed out, a public list has more downsides than it does upsides.

 

QA of modules has been increased, we can report bugs on all modules. At the end of the day though, its the 3rd Parties that need to look after their products, and from what I can see most are making a good effort to do so, with a couple playing catch-up.

 

Meh, whatever.

[Torso]

 

When ED and third parties are ready to share info they will and do, usually it is when an item is complete and they have news to share. I don't think we can ask for anything more.

 

ED have tried to be more open in the past about progress and it has not worked out, which is why we only get to see information about the current product for release, but I wouldn't call it secrecy, just marketing, focusing on the next released product seems the best way to me.

 

The bugs, I do my best to get around as many as I can so do other testers, and also the ED team, we report it and it is given a priority assessment. These reports are not public and wont ever be.

 

You see how open Razbam and Heatblur are being currently. Are they suffering for it?

 

We appreciate their sharing. They are not hyping anything, they are just saying 'Hey, here is something we worked on today made some progress on and giving you a peek". It means something to us. We tell them how much we appreciate it. They aren't being raked over the coals or being assaulted. And if some immature manchild decides to post some nonsense..oh well, ignore and move on.

 

I wish ED had a PR dept. and not left it to what appears to be unpaid super-fans. No disrespect meant by that. But PR and Marketing and good Customer Service are skillsets and one can't just be tasked with it and expect it to go well.

 

ED and the 3rd party devs all suffer from a 'get to 70%-80% project completion, then move majority focus to the next project, and make that last 20-30% drag on forever. With some maybe never reaching completion most likely.'

 

How good would the meals at a restaurant be if they only prepared their food to 80% or

"Hey, wanna buy an early access suit? it is 85% done, We will get those sleeves done, we just need to get working on this new tuxedo though, but we will get those sleeves done, really. We just need a new sewing machine for the new tuxedo first. Wait, what issue with the vest?"

 

I know, buy elsewhere.

But...you know...uhuh.

 

 

I support ED, that is why I care. I spent a lot of money, by choice I know, on this product line. I will spend more. I just wish ED made that seem important to them.

[NineLine]

They aren't being raked over the coals or being assaulted. And if some immature manchild decides to post some nonsense..oh well, ignore and move on.

 

You guys dont see a lot of what gets removed from those 3rd party forums, and comparing those 3rd parties working on one or two modules is not a great comparison to all ED has going on at the moment.

 

Again, they have tried being open before, it never seems to end well, sure most of the time its the vocal minority that ruin it for the rest of us, but that is where we are at.

 

And yes, I do take your comment of un-paid super fans as disrespectful, and you give a perfect example of killing communications with immature actions.