Controling tendency to want to roll during flight?

[DocSigma]

I apologize if this has been asked, but I was curious how those who have a lot of time in the 109 control the tendency for the plane to want to roll clockwise during flight with no rudder trim or aileron trim settings? At the moment, I've been just adding small rudder and roll inputs to keep her flying straight. I can trim out the 51, 190, and Spit to fly pretty stable, but in the 109 - without trim tabs on 2 of the 3 surfaces - not so much. Is this normal, or am I missing something? Thanks.

[razo+r]

It's normal and caused by the torque of the prop and engine.

 

In the 109, you need to trimm the rudder a bit, in the 190, once you are on cruise speed with the correct setting, you don't need trim

[Yo-Yo]

109 is perfectly trimmed for cruise flight at 1.1-1.15 ata.

[Little_D]

109 is perfectly trimmed for cruise flight at 1.1-1.15 ata.

 

Hi YoYo,

 

are you shure? Because cruise settings ( Reiseflug/Dauerleistung ) is ATA 1.25 by 2400 rpm. ATA 1.1 - 1.15 by 2000 - 2100 rpm is fuel save flight, not cruise flight. So the 109 is trimmed for fuel save flight? The ATA info are infos from the Messerschidt Museum in Manchingen for G10 till K4.

 

Also i noticed that the automatic on the 109 is verry slow and maby all other flightsimes make it wrong and only you make it right, but should the automatic not hold the rpm that i set with ATA? I mean, i set ATA 1.25 on the runway, start and up to full throttle high, the automatic gives me 2400 rpm. It will change the angle of atack from the prop to hold 2400 rpm against the speed, airpressure, etc. Of curse as i climb i have to give more power to hold ATA 1.25 and the automatic will hold the 2400 rpm till i reach the full trottle high, from there i should fly with ATA1.35 with 2600 rpm as stated in the handbock of the 109.

 

But maby i am only an unknowing flight simulations fan.

 

By the way, the normandy map even if it is alph is great i love it. Well done gents. cant wait to get more WW2 stuff from DCS.

 

regards

 

Little_D

[Yo-Yo]

Hi YoYo,

 

are you shure? Because cruise settings ( Reiseflug/Dauerleistung ) is ATA 1.25 by 2400 rpm. ATA 1.1 - 1.15 by 2000 - 2100 rpm is fuel save flight, not cruise flight. So the 109 is trimmed for fuel save flight? The ATA info are infos from the Messerschidt Museum in Manchingen for G10 till K4.

 

Also i noticed that the automatic on the 109 is verry slow and maby all other flightsimes make it wrong and only you make it right, but should the automatic not hold the rpm that i set with ATA? I mean, i set ATA 1.25 on the runway, start and up to full throttle high, the automatic gives me 2400 rpm. It will change the angle of atack from the prop to hold 2400 rpm against the speed, airpressure, etc. Of curse as i climb i have to give more power to hold ATA 1.25 and the automatic will hold the 2400 rpm till i reach the full trottle high, from there i should fly with ATA1.35 with 2600 rpm as stated in the handbock of the 109.

 

But maby i am only an unknowing flight simulations fan.

 

By the way, the normandy map even if it is alph is great i love it. Well done gents. cant wait to get more WW2 stuff from DCS.

 

regards

 

Little_D

I did not understand what you complain about, sorry. The pitch changing ratio in 109 is really slow... as it seems in comparison to hydromatics. But it's really ingenious as you use manual pitch control - this ratio is very harmonic with the speed changes during loops and other vertical maneuvers.

[DocSigma]

Thanks for the replies. Very much appreciated.

[Echo38]

cruise settings ( Reiseflug/Dauerleistung ) is ATA 1.25 by 2400 rpm. ATA 1.1 - 1.15 by 2000 - 2100 rpm is fuel save flight, not cruise flight.

 

Err ... cruise flight means "fuel save flight." Cruise = fuel-saving power settings

[Little_D]

Hi Echo38,

 

Reiseflug/Dauerleistung is cruise flight in german documents and not fuel save power settings. And as far as i know and read, all german 109 where trimmed for Reiseflug/Dauerleistung and not for fuel save power settings. So the 109 needs to be trimmed for ATA 1.25 and not for ATA 1.1

 

Regards

 

Little_D

[Mud]

No matter what ATA and RPM I set, for me the Bf109 keeps rolling to the right.

 

Slip ball is center though at for instance ATA 1.1 and 2000rpm.

[WildBillKelsoe]

a certain amount of stick pressure is necessary. Its not a hands-off plane.

[Echo38]

Reiseflug/Dauerleistung is cruise flight in german documents and not fuel save power settings.

 

Interesting. So what USAAF called "max cruise" is what Luftwaffe called (translated) "fuel save," and what USAAF called "max continuous" was what Luftwaffe called "cruise flight"? Or ... what?

 

For USAAF fighters, there were four given ratings. In order of most to least fuel-efficient, they were: max cruise, max continuous, military power, and war emergency power. In English aviation terminology, "cruise flight" means "fuel-saving flight." Max continuous referred not to fuel efficiency, but rather engine temperature.

 

[edit: derp! Most to least, not least to most.]

Edited August 25, 2017 by Echo38

[rel4y]

In order of most to least fuel efficient:

 

Sparflug = max cruise

Höchstzulässige Dauerleistung = max continuous

Steig- und Kampfleistung = military power

Start- und Notleistung = WEP (without MW50)

Sondernotleistung = WEP (with MW50)

 

Reiseflug is somewhere between Sparflug and Höchstzulässige Dauerleistung.

 

For the K-4 Reiseflug is 645 kph (1030 PS) at 8,4 km altitude. Dont know what ata it corrosponds to and 645 kph seem a bit fast for 1030 PS, but this is theoretically what it should be trimmed for!

Edited August 23, 2017 by rel4y

[rel4y]

Ok, just tested. Thats 1.15 ata at 2400 rpm. The rudder is perfectly trimmed at that speed, buuuuut the elevator is totally out of whack! The nose points to the sky.

 

But the engine settings seem to be correct. Please try 1.15 ata, auto pitch sets 2400 rpm by itself btw. But the plane is not trimmed!

 

Edited August 23, 2017 by rel4y

[BuzzU]

Can someone explain why the Germans thought a plane didn't need a pilot trim?

[amazingme]

Trimming the rudder and ailerons helps the pilots on long flights and not so much in dogfights. Ask yourself how many times did you trim the rudder and the ailerons in combat?

[BuzzU]

I trim before getting into combat. Everytime. There's more to flying than just the dogfight. Plus, it makes aiming easier when the plane is trimmed.

[LeCuvier]

Can someone explain why the Germans thought a plane didn't need a pilot trim?

Probably because Germany had to do with very limited resources, and aileron/rudder trim was considered a "nice to have".

And in fact this limitation did not prevent the German "Experten" from achieving astronomical kill counts.

[BuzzU]

Yes, when the pickings were easier. Plus, the pilots flew forever.

[amazingme]

I trim before getting into combat. Everytime. There's more to flying than just the dogfight. Plus, it makes aiming easier when the plane is trimmed.

The german planes were trimmed on the ground for a specific ATA and rpm.

[LeCuvier]

Yes, when the pickings were easier. Plus, the pilots flew forever.

The pickings were never easy

[BuzzU]

Yes, I know but planes need to be trimmed constantly. I'm sure the pilots didn't like it either. At least they put pitch trim on the 190.

[rel4y]

109 also has pitch trim?

[amazingme]

Without it, you can't pull up from a dive at very high speed.. those stick forces.. :)

 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[BuzzU]

Ok, I don't own it. I thought all trim was set on the ground.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Ok, I don't own it. I thought all trim was set on the ground.

 

no, only aileron and rudder trims are set on the ground in options/special tab. elevator trim is in the plane and player modified like the P-51D. I tend to think this airplane is an evolution from the Fokker WWI stuff. And you can guess the amount of forward stick from rise of flight.

 

I usually set my rudder trim to a target speed and hold aileron trim the same amount in the opposite direction. This usually means having hands on the stick all the time since they are not modifiable inflight. Elevator trim is also sensitive you must use a rotary encoder as opposed to the hat switch. At least thats my opinion. Otherwise, in a dive past 500 kph, your stick is useless...