Mirage Status

TomCatMucDe · June 12, 2017

At first glance, the Mirage looks like a nice module, but if you are a hardcore flight sim enthusiast and want to experience the complete procedures in this aircraft, INS navigation, different A-G attack profiles, etc. you will soon notice that it is an unfinished product.

The manual is incomplete, it has been a long time since it was last updated. Razbam was doing a great job working in the Mirage, with lots of weekly updates and have been and still are very verbose about them, which is great, but forgot about the manual. Unfortunately these updates have been greatly reduced lately, as they are mainly focused now in their next product, strange enough this happened about the same time they changed the M2000C status from "early access" to "finished product". When doing the tutorials, you will soon notice that many systems do not work as described. Eg, the INS at first glance looks pretty cool, but when you do the different update position methods, they just do not work: they are not implemented. The A-G gun tutorial describes something that does not work like that; precision bombing, I could not even repeat the procedure. The A-G pipper both for bombs and gun wasn't accurate at all (I saw that the one for guns was updated after I tried, so it may be fixed).

Then FM in the ground seems flawed: you need lots of thrust to start moving and even to keep moving, feels as if wheels are always braking. Engine sounds are very weird. E.g. there are doppler effect sounds for a static camera relative to the airplane, and muting inside the cockpit when you get to Mach 1, which makes no sense.

To sum up: if you just want it to quick startup, takeoff and go air-to-air in an online server, it will serve your purpose perfectly. OTOH, if you are looking for a complete, accurate module and exploit all the features ofthe aricraft, do not get it because it is not yet there (at least until Razbam comes back to it and eventually finishes it, but AFAIK they have not stated when that will be).

+1

OnlyforDCS · June 12, 2017

So many differing opinions. I would say they say more about the different people and their views than they do about the module itself.

Some people consider an accurate manual to be the most important part of a module. Others are satisfied that the systems work, even without the proper procedures being updated and described correctly in the manual. Some consider the flight model to be really important. Others think that having accurate sounds in the cockpit is paramount. It's all a matter of taste. No simulation is perfect. IMO the Mirage comes close, and will only get better with time.

tom1502 · June 12, 2017

I really enjoy flying the Mirage. I have not got to grips with all of the systems as yet, but I can fire (most of) the weapons and I can make satisfying attack runs with the Mk82 Snakeyes, leaving a nice trail of craters along runways and roads!

It may have some bugs - the Radar can be a pain, but whether that is a bug I do not know. The Deferred shading in 2.1 does make the HUD unreadable in clear skies, but this is an ED thing and is due to be fixed on Wednesday - and is not exclusive the Mirage.

I recommend it, it's great fun to fly, and a challenge on multiplayer servers if you're against F-15's with AMRAAMs as you only have semi-active homing missiles.

dimitrischal · June 12, 2017

I don't fly fc3 fighters and think they shouldn't have been included in DCS in the first place.

So the Mirage was the only way for me, it's a great little fighter, very easy to use and very dynamic.

Some issues are there and will be for quite some time, very difficult to develop a module with FBW without manufacturer cooperation.

Some tweaking regarding the FM is normal as it is still a wip. Honestly some bitching about the FM in the forums is uncalled for...

Damage modeling is pretty pathetic but no one can blame razbam for this as this is being reworked from the ground up we won't see any updates until ED releases their code.

I would buy the Mirage again if I had to.

Johnny Dioxin · June 12, 2017

I wanted to buy the Mirage until I started reading a bunch of stuff (reviews and comments from a couple of friends who bought it) about the module and found that there is a lot of complaints about it, and thought about asking the community before jumping into any wrong conclusion.

Don't worry too much about it - you'll find people complaining about absolutely everything in here - regardless if it's a module, the sim itself, missions, plans, policies, you name it. They claim it shows that they 'care'.

some1 · June 12, 2017

Don't worry too much about it - you'll find people complaining about absolutely everything in here - regardless if it's a module, the sim itself, missions, plans, policies, you name it. They claim it shows that they 'care'.

You forgot to put "people complaining about people who complain" on that list. :music_whistling:

Johnny Dioxin · June 12, 2017

Very droll - however, I was answering his question and not complaining - I leave that to the many who seem so good at it. No names... :music_whistling:

See - I can whistle, too :smilewink:

Gliptal · June 12, 2017

I've always been on Razbam's side regarding the M-2000C, followed the development closely throghout the Alpha, and was quite pleased with how the module shaped up. I don't regret buying it in the slightest.

With that said, I've recently dived back in after a few months of hiatus and I must say I'm quite disappointed. Wherever I look I see small bugs, inconsistencies, badly explained mechanics, the manual is mostly out of date, most of the info must be found in single forum posts.

With Razbam concentrating on the Harrier (which is fine), I will not be buying any of their new modules until the M-2000C is in a much better state.

TomCatMucDe · June 12, 2017

Very droll - however, I was answering his question and not complaining - I leave that to the many who seem so good at it. No names... :music_whistling:

See - I can whistle, too :smilewink:

people are giving their opinions and feedbacks to the user who asked for them.

It is fair to him to tell him that while the Mirage is not bad, it is unfortuantely left unfinished and if he is a hardcore simmmer, he would be disappointed.

Colmillo · June 12, 2017

Love this aircraft.
Simple -no flap - no trim- (Fly by Wire)
No snapping out of control with stick in the belly.
Stable weapon platform.
Clear logical HUD with large visible icons.
Satisfying learning curve. Not simple -not frustrating.
Can be frustrating to learn to line up IRS, but can be set ready in menu.
Simple bomb procedures.

Can feel strange at low speed. (Why fly at that speed?)
90% of noise in the forum, is because guys arguments are based on knowledge and experience on conventional wing.
Turn and Burn need practice if you want fight experienced multiplayer.

The behavior at low speed is a minor issue for me. My guess it is closer to reality than many may claim. Studied delta a bit lately, and it is more different than imagined.

M2000C gives me immersion and great experience.

Things not working as expected, I always ask myself: Is it me or is it bug? It turns out to be me !00%.

M2000C is not bugged down or flawed.

Well said and 100% agree with you ZERO.

baltic_dragon · June 12, 2017

Hey guys,

Well I am certainly biased, as I have worked on M-2000C a lot and still am (busy with the Red Flag Campaign). I'd say yes, there still are things that need to be implemented, fixed or fine-tuned. Though these are mostly minor issues and not game breaking one (apart from the latest problem with FM, which AFAIK will be addressed soon and which came up, like many things do, with one of the updates).

Having said that I know the team is fully aware of these and will fix them as soon as possible. There was a very good and important reason to focus on Harrier for the time being, but it doesn't mean that M-2000C won't get back the love and attention it had before. So we just need to be patient a little bit more.

myHelljumper · June 12, 2017

Having said that I know the team is fully aware of these and will fix them as soon as possible. There was a very good and important reason to focus on Harrier for the time being, but it doesn't mean that M-2000C won't get back the love and attention it had before. So we just need to be patient a little bit more.

Thanks for the informations :)

CrashO · June 12, 2017

There was a very good and important reason to focus on Harrier for the time being.

ED wanting to show it with the F-18 on the shiny new carriers, during E3? :D

Conroy · June 12, 2017

There was a very good and important reason to focus on Harrier for the time being, but it doesn't mean that M-2000C won't get back the love and attention it had before. So we just need to be patient a little bit more.

Absolutely.

When we will have an update about what's going on with M2000C, a serious update not just a simple "We don't have dropped M2000C", we could considere the AV8B preorder.

When we'll have the guarantee that M2000 will be not only updated but also upgraded to the quality standard of AV8B, 3D included, may be we could seriously considere to preorder this aircraft too.

aceviper · June 12, 2017

Absolutely.

When we will have an update about what's going on with M2000C, a serious update not just a simple "We don't have dropped M2000C", we could considere the AV8B preorder.

When we'll have the guarantee that M2000 will be not only updated but also upgraded to the quality standard of AV8B, 3D included, may be we could seriously considere to preorder this aircraft too.

My 2 cents...I have more faith in RAZBAM then in 3 other third-party developers combined.

The M2000c is a top quality product and they will get my money in the future for sure.

Their bug squashing is light "years" ahead of others.

Roll on the Harrier.:pilotfly:

Slims · June 12, 2017

My biggest gripe with the module is with the damage implementation. It`s simply totally lacking, the panel is useless cause it`s scripted to light up in a sequence on start up and that's it. Whenever you will get hit you will loose nosecone, radar and rwr and you`ll get a drag increase and that's it.... You will notice it doesn't matter what hits you the damage is always the same. Nobody from razbam said they will work on this. Besides this there are a lot of issues with missing systems beside the visual stuff, you can browse the m2k thread and you`ll find what is missing.

It`s true there are 3 third party developers in worse situation but at the same time there are 3 party devs light years away ahead of razbam to use the same comparison as above.

I would suggest to wait a bit and see what happens after the release of the harrier. Because right now the same thing that was promised for m2k is promised for harrier, and m2k is in the stat it is ..

Edited June 12, 2017 by Slims

Pikey · June 12, 2017

Important to note that damage modelling is done via Eagle and they have touted a newer system will come. Now I believe I read somewhere that some 3rd parties are waiting on this. Informaiton on the damage modelling has been released very recently in the DCSW updates.

I really have no gripe with the Mirage but no one mentioned the one feature it lacks with 'ground radar' that is also waiting for ED to implement something. Mirage is no less complete than any other module with the possible exceptions of A-10C and Ka-50, everything has something or other needing polished or tweaked. Why Mirage attracts such an amount of criticism when you could make an apples to oranges comparison of other modules is likely due to it's mainstream success as a fighter in many PvP servers. And once you call "pvp", moaning happens regardless.

My biggest gripe with the module is with the damage implementation. It`s simply totally lacking, the panel is useless cause it`s scripted to light up in a sequence on start up and that's it. Whenever you will get hit you will loose nosecone, radar and rwr and you`ll get a drag increase and that's it.... You will notice it doesn't matter what hits you the damage is always the same. Nobody from razbam said they will work on this. Besides this there are a lot of issues with missing systems beside the visual stuff, you can browse the m2k thread and you`ll find what is missing.
It`s true there are 3 third party developers in worse situation but at the same time there are 3 party devs light years away ahead of razbam to use the same comparison as above.
I would suggest to wait a bit and see what happens after the release of the harrier. Because right now the same thing that was promised for m2k is promised for harrier, and m2k is in the stat it is ..

Hamilton · June 12, 2017

At first glance, the Mirage looks like a nice module, but if you are a hardcore flight sim enthusiast and want to experience the complete procedures in this aircraft, INS navigation, different A-G attack profiles, etc. you will soon notice that it is an unfinished product.

The manual is incomplete, it has been a long time since it was last updated. Razbam was doing a great job working in the Mirage, with lots of weekly updates and have been and still are very verbose about them, which is great, but forgot about the manual. Unfortunately these updates have been greatly reduced lately, as they are mainly focused now in their next product, strange enough this happened about the same time they changed the M2000C status from "early access" to "finished product". When doing the tutorials, you will soon notice that many systems do not work as described. Eg, the INS at first glance looks pretty cool, but when you do the different update position methods, they just do not work: they are not implemented. The A-G gun tutorial describes something that does not work like that; precision bombing, I could not even repeat the procedure. The A-G pipper both for bombs and gun wasn't accurate at all (I saw that the one for guns was updated after I tried, so it may be fixed).

Then FM in the ground seems flawed: you need lots of thrust to start moving and even to keep moving, feels as if wheels are always braking. Engine sounds are very weird. E.g. there are doppler effect sounds for a static camera relative to the airplane, and muting inside the cockpit when you get to Mach 1, which makes no sense.

To sum up: if you just want it to quick startup, takeoff and go air-to-air in an online server, it will serve your purpose perfectly. OTOH, if you are looking for a complete, accurate module and exploit all the features ofthe aricraft, do not get it because it is not yet there (at least until Razbam comes back to it and eventually finishes it, but AFAIK they have not stated when that will be).

+1

Coxy_99 · June 12, 2017

+1

Important to note that damage modelling is done via Eagle and they have touted a newer system will come. Now I believe I read somewhere that some 3rd parties are waiting on this. Informaiton on the damage modelling has been released very recently in the DCSW updates.

I really have no gripe with the Mirage but no one mentioned the one feature it lacks with 'ground radar' that is also waiting for ED to implement something. Mirage is no less complete than any other module with the possible exceptions of A-10C and Ka-50, everything has something or other needing polished or tweaked. Why Mirage attracts such an amount of criticism when you could make an apples to oranges comparison of other modules is likely due to it's mainstream success as a fighter in many PvP servers. And once you call "pvp", moaning happens regardless.

Yea lots of modules suffer with the i can still fly while dead mode, Even the L-39 you can fly it while dead just with no sound, I flew the mirage dead after been killed by a shilka, We all wait on ED for this one.

Joni · June 12, 2017

Based on this post and several others I encountered in this forum, I decided to wait for future updates and/or future modules, mainly because of the price/completion level ratio which I feel is a little bit high.

In Argentina exchange in USD is a bit expensive so this ratio I mention is really important when buying a product, we need it to be finished otherwise is not very attractive.

Thanks everyone for your answers.

Hamilton · June 12, 2017

There was a very good and important reason to focus on Harrier for the time being,

They´ve put the whole,the entire,the full focus on Harrier and the fan boys cannot see that. Listen, after Harrier´s release the focus will continue due the doubts,the support, etc. that a plane like that demands and Mirage will be always the second ...

That happened to Metal2Mesh´s F-15 about two years ago...

myHelljumper · June 12, 2017

They´ve put the whole,the entire,the full focus on Harrier and the fan boys cannot see that. Listen, after Harrier´s release the focus will continue due the doubts,the support, etc. that a plane like that demands and Mirage will be always the second ...

That happened to Metal2Mesh´s F-15 about two years ago...

Sorry but you are wrong, us fanboys can see that :).

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3165770&postcount=4698

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3165798&postcount=4700

Yeah, don't bash devs when you don't know the whole story ;).

@Piston85 If your main concern is a finished module then you are wise to wait :thumbup:

Edited June 12, 2017 by myHelljumper

Hamilton · June 12, 2017

Sorry but you are wrong,

Ok, I hope so! :unsure:

don't bash devs when you don't know the whole story

Yesss,that´s the point, We don´t know the whole story so it is difficult to support that idea: "we´ll get back the love and attention it had before":unsure:

myHelljumper · June 12, 2017

Ok, I hope so! :unsure:

Yesss,that´s the point, We don´t know the whole story so it is difficult to support that idea: "we´ll get back the love and attention it had before":unsure:

No trying to be harsh with you but that is why you can't do what you just did. :)

And you did not know the whole story because there was a NDA... not RB fault.

Slims · June 12, 2017

I don`t think it`s ED`s job to script how the plane acts with total hydraulic failure, or for that matter any other failure. I know exactly what in term of damage is on ED`s side, the things i`m describing are not.... Also why is ground radar also on ed`s side doesn't the Viggen have air to ground radar ? The issues i`m describing don't happen in other plane the fact that you can survive direct hits from r27, aim120, sam`s, DIRECT hits to the cockpit, and every time you get hit the exact same things happen are not on ED`s side.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Slims

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