How do you survive a dogfight in the Mig-21

[kelpie]

CALLING ALL MIG-21 PILOTS!!!! :D

 

Going against a B-52 is a piece of cake. :smilewink: But the real question is: how do you survive a dogfight?

 

Sharp turns and snap maneuvers spell doom for a Mig-21 that stalls and plummets to the ground below. How do you beat this and keep up the fight against that nimble F-5 or powerful F-15? :D

Edited July 29, 2017 by kelpie

[lemoen]

Against an F-15 you're likely going to die unless the F-15 pilot makes a bad mistake. They can outturn, outclimb and outdive you in every regime.

 

Against an F-5 however, you have speed on your side. They can outturn you easily and their engine won't flame out, unlike yours. So the trick is to not slow down, make them burn their energy away by trying to turn and climb at you, when they stall out you should be able to make a run at them. The Mig21 is not good at turning with those small wings, it wants to go fast and you should let it.

[Wyatt109]

The Mig21 is not good at turning with those small wings, it wants to go fast and you should let it.

 

The Mig-21 can out-turn the F-5 in some circumstances if you know what you're doing. Hint hint - it involves landing-flaps, afterburner, and a lot of discipline.

 

Here's a demonstration:

 

[lemoen]

The Mig-21 can out-turn the F-5 in some circumstances if you know what you're doing. Hint hint - it involves landing-flaps, afterburner, and a lot of discipline.

 

Here's a demonstration:

 

 

I saw this when you posted it at first. That was a good move, I wouldn't recommend as a general tactic in the 21 though :D

[kelpie]

Against an F-15 you're likely going to die unless the F-15 pilot makes a bad mistake. They can outturn, outclimb and outdive you in every regime.

 

Against an F-5 however, you have speed on your side. They can outturn you easily and their engine won't flame out, unlike yours. So the trick is to not slow down, make them burn their energy away by trying to turn and climb at you, when they stall out you should be able to make a run at them. The Mig21 is not good at turning with those small wings, it wants to go fast and you should let it.

 

Yup, the F-15 is a hard one to go against but I'm sure there are pilots who have. :D

 

Out turning an F-5 is suicide. :P Best to out run them it seems.

 

The Mig-21 can out-turn the F-5 in some circumstances if you know what you're doing. Hint hint - it involves landing-flaps, afterburner, and a lot of discipline.

 

Here's a demonstration:

 

 

Awesome video. :smilewink: Keep the speed up and run around in a circle until you catch up. Very nice tactic. :D

 

________________________________________________________________________

 

Let's hear some stories about how everyone uses the Mig-21 in a fight. :D I know there are good stories out there. :P

 

My story:

 

I went head to head with an F-5 over the highest mountain peaks. I launched an R-3 at him but missed so I tried to follow him and went into a sharp turn. My turn bled off too much speed and I started to stall out. I recovered that time and turned the other way to catch him in his turn but ended up stalling and flying into a mountain. :megalol:

 

It was a long walk home from the top of that mountain. :lol:

[Wyatt109]

I saw this when you posted it at first. That was a good move, I wouldn't recommend as a general tactic in the 21 though :D

 

Definitely not, I agree. That said, if you have the opportunity and you really know the airplane, it can truly defy the stereotype of "you can only fly the Mig-21 fast".

[WindyTX]

Rate vs Radius fight, know what fight you are in and what Energy your aircraft needs. Also never reverse unless you are sure the guy near your six has flown through . Nice video good learning points. What happenend to the Wingman who entered the fight .

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Wyatt109]

What happenend to the Wingman who entered the fight .

 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

He thought he could dive in and help but was already running on fumes, so his engines died the moment he got to the fight. Many laughs were had :lol:

[probad]

Yup, the F-15 is a hard one to go against but I'm sure there are pilots who have.

f-15 slayers don't announce themselves, they just nip in with a heater and move on. this is the ideal sort of engagement you're looking for regardless of the matchup anyways.

Out turning an F-5 is suicide.

no it's not. hint: there is a type of turn that abuses the thrust difference between the mig-21 and the f-5.

Sharp turns and snap maneuvers

wtf?

sounds to me like you're not losing to the f-5, you're losing to yourself because you have the wrong impression of what bfm is supposed to look like. if you're trying to imitate guns d jinks, then you're not doing bfm, you're just flailing about.

Edited July 29, 2017 by probad

[kelpie]

Just to be clear I'm not asking for help (although giving advice to other players is always welcome). This is supposed to be a fun thread where we can share our stories in the Mig-21 (both successes and faliures).

 

So be kind and don't criticize how others fly. ;)

[asla36]

Agreeing with probad. If you get yourself into a dogfight against an F-15, you're not in the optimal position. But it isn't all hopeless, you still have a better chance here than you would if you were to get discovered BVR.

 

But the MiG-21bis has some tricks up it's sleeve, your sustained turn is actually pretty good. So providing you don't get splashed in the first few turns, you have a chance. But if your opponent has discipline, best bet is to hold out for as long as you can and get your friendlies's attention.

 

I tend to play the MiG as a baiting aircraft if I get discovered BVR, otherwise a sneaky heater kill is always preferred.

 

And if you are stalling in turns... Just practice, look at your gauges, and learn to read your aircraft's motions.

[Northstar98]

Pffft I'm awful at A-A no matter what I'm using, which is why it's the thing in DCS I end up doing least of. Literally the word embarrassment doesn't do me enough justice.

 

My biggest success in the MiG-21 though against an F-5E, but this was me vs AI, you can't possible mess that up right?

 

Anyway my best tactic so far, that seems to at least delay my demise was getting into a sort-of-scissors (as of now, that's a thing) did it very carefully (but nevertheless losing energy) and I actually managed to get the advantage a few times - the F-5E either made a mistake or otherwise ended up overshooting me, but where I got the advantage I was in an unfavourable position, my energy was in a less than desirable state, which allowed the guy to evade and out-turn and out-climb me. I could've tried to go after it, but the risk of engine failure I thought was too great (especially in an already unfavourable situation, I was already pushing it too far away from what it likes and on top of that it had already happened once trying to chase him in a near vertical climb, restarting in the air however was successful, allowing me to recover).

 

All in all I was pretty much doomed to fail, I was holding my own okay(-ish) in the scissors but advantages were small and still unfavourable - not enough time and in to much of a poor position to go for missile attack successfully.

 

Now I probably could've used the gun, but I don't dare use it because aerial gunnery is something I try not to talk about - as I'm properly atrocious at using it :lol:

Edited July 29, 2017 by Northstar98

[kelpie]

Pffft I'm awful at A-A to matter what I'm using, which is why it's the thing in DCS I end up doing least of. Literally the word embarrassment doesn't do me enough justice.

 

My biggest success in the MiG-21 though against an F-5E, but this was me vs AI, you can't possible mess that up right? Anyway I got into a sort-of-scissors (as of now, that's a thing) did it very carefully and I actually got the advantage a few times, but where I got the advantage I was in an unfavourable position so it was pretty much doomed to fail.

 

Thanks for sharing your Mig-21 story. :thumbup:

 

You must be better at A2A than me. :P Right now I can only take down an AI F-5E if I sneak up behind him and get him with 2 R-60s. :P If I go head to head or launch an R-3 I lose every time. :lol:

[Northstar98]

Thanks for sharing your Mig-21 story. :thumbup:

 

No problem dude :thumbup:

 

I would fly the -21 more and get more experience with it in air-air - at the moment though, it's got work that needs doing, it doesn't make it unplayable in any respect, it just needs a bit of love. So at the moment I'm very much in a state of Viggen is life :)

 

I'm certain once I try again, there will be funnier tales of me totally embarrassing myself at A-A. (I just suck completely at it, even against AI. Fighting me is like taking candy from a candy hating baby who is throwing it's candy at you).

 

You must be better at A2A than me. :P

 

PFFFFFFTTTTT - I can't even use the gun!:megalol:

 

Right now I can only take down an AI F-5E if I sneak up behind him and get him with 2 R-60s. :P If I go head to head or launch an R-3 I lose every time. :lol:

 

Hmmm so far I've had success with the R-3R (obviously RADAR dependent) from a number of situations, both BVR and by fighting them whilst not engaged in any sort of turning fight, but that isn't really.

 

Even with current AI limitations, I find having and coordinating with an EWR normally helps a load. The thing is I'm setting the AI F-5Es to fly high up, where they can't use the terrain to their advantage - in turn giving me the advantage because I have radar guided missiles.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Northstar98

[asla36]

1) Try to sneak up on them and R-60M their tailpipes, or engage them at range with R-3R's

 

2) If that fails, try to get into an energy advantage before the merge. Remember to reduce throttle when getting close, you don't want to be a victim of an all aspect shot. If you are lucky you can get an all-aspect heater shot of your own, though they have better heaters and are going to launch theirs first. If shot upon, throttle to idle and flare.

 

3) Whenever possible, turn vertically in the merge. Prefer vertical turns in the ensuing turnfight as you are better at them. But don't stall, it's better to give them some little advantage instead of a giant one!

 

4) KEEP YOUR EYES ON THEM!!!

 

5) "halp, there here!", your allies are a big help in a prolonged engagement.

 

And practice, practice, practice some more. Do this and you'll be ok against F-5E's.

[kelpie]

1) Try to sneak up on them and R-60M their tailpipes, or engage them at range with R-3R's

 

2) If that fails, try to get into an energy advantage before the merge. Remember to reduce throttle when getting close, you don't want to be a victim of an all aspect shot. If you are lucky you can get an all-aspect heater shot of your own, though they have better heaters and are going to launch theirs first. If shot upon, throttle to idle and flare.

 

3) Whenever possible, turn vertically in the merge. Prefer vertical turns in the ensuing turnfight as you are better at them. But don't stall, it's better to give them some little advantage instead of a giant one!

 

4) KEEP YOUR EYES ON THEM!!!

 

5) "halp, there here!", your allies are a big help in a prolonged engagement.

 

And practice, practice, practice some more. Do this and you'll be ok against F-5E's.

 

Good advice as always, Asla. :D

 

What's your most memorable dogfight in the 21? :smilewink:

[catt42]

Now I am confused..

I don't have experience with the mig-21 in dcs, but I read in many cases (mostly in books about the 4477th TES such as "red eagles" and "America's secret mig squadron") that the "secret" when fighting with this aircraft in 1v1 is dragging the opponent to a low energy fight, because the mig retains a great nose authority in this state, matched only by the f-18.

By reading your answers, it seems that this isn't modeled in the game. Is it because the mig they talk about in the books is the f-13 variant?

Edited July 30, 2017 by catt42

[zitron]

Flaps down, AOA to the limit (but not over!), you can out turn AI F-15s let alone F-5s:

 

[Basher54321]

Now I am confused..

I don't have experience with the mig-21 in dcs, but I read in many cases (mostly in books about the 4477th TES such as "red eagles" and "America's secret mig squadron") that the "secret" when fighting with this aircraft in 1v1 is dragging the opponent to a low energy fight, because the mig retains a great nose authority in this state, matched only by the f-18.

By reading your answers, it seems that this isn't modeled in the game. Is it because the mig they talk about in the books is the f-13 variant?

 

 

Pretty much spot on - the Bis was heavier and handled significantly differently from pilot comments.

IIRC the Red Eagles started flying F-7s (Chinese MiG-21) and noted they were also less maneuverable than the F-13s which had lighter noses.

[Kang]

MiG stories sounds like a fun thread...

Lately I mostly use it for A2G runs, which is fun, but also feels a bit like out of its element. But there has been some A2A of course as well. I remember my first ever MiG-21 fight against a human pilot. I had had a GCI bearing on the F-5E and a bit of an altitude advantage when I turned for him. Now, this isn't exactly an elegant piece of maneouvre, but I got a radar lock and the scope picture made me believe I was generally behind him, so I launched both my R3Rs at him and scored a splash. Did it seem like he was very new to the F-5 himself? Yes. Was it a pretty cheap shot? Yes. Am I still going to call it a success? Yes.

[kelpie]

MiG stories sounds like a fun thread...

Lately I mostly use it for A2G runs, which is fun, but also feels a bit like out of its element. But there has been some A2A of course as well. I remember my first ever MiG-21 fight against a human pilot. I had had a GCI bearing on the F-5E and a bit of an altitude advantage when I turned for him. Now, this isn't exactly an elegant piece of maneouvre, but I got a radar lock and the scope picture made me believe I was generally behind him, so I launched both my R3Rs at him and scored a splash. Did it seem like he was very new to the F-5 himself? Yes. Was it a pretty cheap shot? Yes. Am I still going to call it a success? Yes.

 

Very nice story. :smilewink:

 

There's no such thing as a cheap shot in combat. :thumbup:

 

That was definitely one splash for you and I'm sure the F-5 pilot learned from it too. :smilewink:

[asla36]

What's your most memorable dogfight in the 21? :smilewink:

One of my very first ones. I was flying an early morning patrol across the hump on the TAW EU server, I ran up against my most feared opponent in the Mirage 2000C. A really good pilot, he was what you would call a Mirage main.

 

I was starting to run low on fuel, but decided to take my very last stroll around the Inguri valley for the day, a territory recently captured by our previous offensives. Napping the earth with my radar turned off, I was fully reliant on GCI and the Mk1 Eyeball for target acquisition. I was directed at 2 enemy contacts intruding our airspace for a suspected strike mission.

 

Turning tight to avoid the valleys edges, I saw a speck high in the morning sky. Since I was the only friendly aircraft out for patrol, I guessed that it was one of the 2 intruding targets. I started getting pings on my SPO-10. Nervous I wondered if they came from the target or our early warning radars and air defenses, hastily set up to cover our newly gained FARP.

 

I was getting close, intending to bypass the high contact and attack the further out contact. We suspected the early high contact was sent in as a sweep mission, so the main threat to out troops came behind in the form of an A-10 lower in the valleys. My heart sank as I got the urgent message from GCI that the high contact was starting a steep dive. Suspecting that it had located me I cranked behind a mountain and scanned for the suspected agressor.

 

There we were, turning tight in the valleys. It was a honestly confusing mess, at one moment one saw the other, at the next one they had broke off behind another valley and were lost. So it went on, at least for minutes. But in the end, lady luck saved me.

 

I made an Immelman turn and saw a bright spot in the valley ahead of me. Scrambling for the radar switch, I attempted to IFF it. But as the GCI said that I had him in-front of me, I bore-sighted the burner and held down the missile trigger. After what seemed like ages the R-60M under my left wing lighted, and guided perfectly. Spotting the launch, the Mirage flared. But it was already too late and my missile hit home. Seconds later, the wingless Mirage plummeted into a wall of rock. There was no chute.

 

"Target splashed," I reported to the controller. I looked around for the striker, but the controller informed me that it had exited our airspace. Looking at my fuel gauge, I started the climb to get back over the hump. Beslan was still far and the mountains blocked radio navigation. Thanks to the controllers help, I made it back on fumes.

 

After coming to a stop on the tarmac I advanced the throttle to clear the runway for an upcoming strike package. The engine howled back to life, as I was starting to roll. Then it went quiet, it had run out of fuel.

 

That's my story, I hope it was entertaining.

[Frederf]

Inspired by this I set up a repeatable mini-mission. 1v1 against MiG-21 AI, 5000m, 40km, head on meeting cannons only. I started with easiest AI setting. MiG-21 human and AI FM are quite different but the differences mostly cancel leaving a surprisingly neutral contest.

 

First I tried 50% fuel but found this level too low. A good engagement takes almost always a full 1000L. So I adjusted and start 2000L and 1000L was a losing condition if I hadn't shot him down by then. Fuel is a huge concern, high altitude requiring much less. I want to do a fuel rate vs. throttle position analysis at some point.

 

Merge behavior was consistently a high oblique turn, slowing down to 630 IAS immediately before which seemed to work well for it. I doubt this would work as well for my FM so kept ~900 IAS into merge. Strong climbing turn (7G) rapidly reducing in G over the top. Rate increases in a pleasing way coincides with speed decay and a cue to greatly reduce back pressure.

 

Slow speed is to be avoided during any rate contest. The drag increases and the engine produces less thrust at lower speeds. The low speed hole is a deep one to dig out of. Poor turn rate is a marker of too high or too low speed. When the turn rate improves suddenly, it's a trap. Reduce pressure or you'll fall into the hole.

 

I couldn't win the rate contest against the AI. After merge and second head on I went directly into a one circle scissors which I could win semi-reliably. Reversing slightly before AI passing 6 I would get him out in front and start to be in phase after 4-5 crossings. Then it's unload and lag behind and just attempt better energy management to convert to a shooting solution once trailing.

 

With R-3S on each the engagement was almost identical as the missile can only be really used in the same manner as the gun but at longer range (but less aspect). A lagging maneuver diving for six and then an abrupt energy-spoiling pull would have the target flying away and the Gs low enough to shoot.

[kelpie]

It's been pretty quiet here for a while. A lot of good stories were told so let's keep it going. :smilewink:

 

I'll regale you all with a story of my recent exploit. :D

 

(some screenshots are uploaded in the ed screenshot thread)

 

I took off from Minvody with my AI wingman, he was flying a standard bare metal mig and I was flying my custom made white Vietnamese mig. We were both loaded with 4 R-60s and 2 R-3Rs. After I took off and waited for my wingman to join the formation I contacted our A-50 that had took off while I was starting-up. He reported there were contacts flanking at 160 with an altitude of 4500.

 

I'm a sneaky person so I kept my radar off and flew in a little lower than 4500 meters up armed my guns and R-60s. As we kept updating our approach thanks to that wonderful A-50 I saw 3 dots in front of my and my wingman called out contact 3 times (I guess to let me know it's really a contact and not some dirt on my screen :P). I turned on the afterburners and came at them fast with my wingman watching my tail. As I got close enough to get a tone 2 of the 3 broke off and came toward us. I launched one R-60 and immediately got a hit. The second bandit flew past me and was coming around fast. I used after burners and (this time) I kept an eye on the UUA so I wouldn't stall and fall to the ground (the issue I had against the F-5 in my first story). I got below him and launched another R-60 while we were going head to head. My R-60 hit and as he passed above me I could see it was a flight of 2 F-4E Phantoms (the leader died in my first strike). His engine was smoking as he passed and I could see he was trying to get behind my wingman. I was able to get my mig turned around using afterburners and keeping that UUA around 10 and I got him in sight for another R-60 shot. That missile ruined his day and he went down hard.

 

Now, I know I saw a third dot at the start of this encounter.... so where did he go? Who do you ask? Your friendly A-50. He gave me the bearing of 39. That's really close to Mozdok where a large number of Mig-21's, Mig-15's, and Mig-23's are sitting out in the open. A bomber could easily destroy all of them and cripple the Red side air force. I flew fast at bearing 39 and turned on my radar. after a few seconds I had a contact on my radar. Sure enough he was headed straight for Mozdok. I armed my R-3Rs and locked him up. The moment I was in range I fired the first one. It looked like that missile was going to miss but righted itself and hit the large enemy aircraft. I switched to my second R-3R and slowed down to keep on this guy and as I got on him I saw it was a B-52 loaded to take out the runway and the fighters on the ground. I wasn't about to let that happen so I kept my pipper right on him and launched that second R-3R. That hit took his wing right off (and almost took me with him). I moved quickly to keep from hitting any debris and watched that B-52 go down.

 

It was time to relax... until I looked at my fuel and noticed I was low. Too low to make it back to Minvody. I ordered my wingman (who was helpful in distracting the one F-4 but did nothing else) to RTB. I contacted Mozdok and came in nice and smooth for a landing. I taxied beside the line of Mig-23's I had just saved and waited for my wingman.... and waited.... and waited... Turns out he didn't make it to land and had to eject. At least we survived to fight another day. :thumbup:

Edited August 21, 2017 by kelpie

[jackmckay]

I think that mig21 engine is under-powered in DCS. I don't sense a difference between 1st and 2nd afterburner stages, second gives 9T of thrust for few minutes but seems like not simulated in DCS jet. Small plane as mig21 should accelerate very fast under 2nd stage but it looks like F5 can catch up too easily. Coincidence or RL fact? Not talking about dogfight position awareness and tactics but pure performance of machines.