OT “Das Boot” new generation stealth submarine

[p_o_d_2_2]

Hey, we've got wire guided MISSILES who wires won't snap at 300m/s. Don't gomme that ;)

i'd think that being under water creates a little bit more drag on the guide wire, than say the wire on a TOW

 

This completely /destroys/ the tempo a submarine captain is used to. The torpedo is closing much faster than it did before, so much as four times as fast, if not more. I think it changes things /considerably/.

 

how so? if for example, someone jumped you in your F-15 in a way that you weren't expecting or hadn't seen before, are you just going to sit there? i would guess that you would do whatever you usually do to dodge the missile wouldn't you? i'd say the same would go for the sub captain.:)

[GGTharos]

How about if I launch on you from 20nm, you know the missile will arrive in 40 sec, so you start your maneuvers appropriately ... but it arrives in 10sec? :)

 

No surprise needed.

[p_o_d_2_2]

well, if you were shooting at me, it would hit me regardless, but that's another story. from how i understand the Shkval, it makes enough noise that you would instantly know its not a normal fish coming at you, and you would use whatever tactics you know to beat a super-cavitation torp :)

[D-Scythe]

Hey, we've got wire guided MISSILES who wires won't snap at 300m/s. Don't gomme that ;)

 

Think you forgot about the underwater thing...unless you honestly believe travelling in water is not really any different from travelling in air. From which I would then counter why not build an submarine in the shape of an Flanker if air and underwater travel is in fact the same?

 

This completely /destroys/ the tempo a submarine captain is used to. The torpedo is closing much faster than it did before, so much as four times as fast, if not more. I think it changes things /considerably/.

 

Are we still talking about unguided Shkval's as opposed to the unknown and possibly not in service guided Shkval? Cause as far as I know, any modern attack sub can wade through salvos of unguided Shkval's at silent speed easily. If you only need to alter your depth a few hundred feet to evade a Shkval, it's not gonna be changing the tempo on ANYTHING.

 

Sure, the attack is going to change - to an EASIER one. If you ever tried to attack a Seawolf or Virginia class sub with a Shkval at range, the captain is gonna laugh at you and send two ADCAPs your way. Then someone needs to get out the blonde dispensor because the Seawolf crew are going to be heroes.

[Weta43]

This all sounds very reminiscent of the arguments around the kind of controllability at high angles of attack that allowed Russian planes to perform the cobra before US planes could perform similar manoeuvres. "It's nothing but a party trick !!!" , "of no relevance under modern conditions" , "If it were of any use don't you think the designers of our planes would have made them capable of it ???" (which seems to be the underlying basis for all the other arguments)

& then the F-22 comes along & the air force is proudly showing off its own version...(again not because it is all that useful in & of itself, but because it is indicative of controllability at high AOA.)

At present Super cavitating weapons work in the U.S. is being directed by the Office of Naval Research (ONR) in Arlington, Va. who are trying to develop a super cavitating torpedo for the US. "With regard to the computational fluid dynamics (CFD) work on the torpedo being done at ARL/Penn State" ... "So far the CFD is doing a fairly good job, but it's not yet to the point that we're happy with it," he continues. "It's both a matter of computational issues and our fundamental understanding of the physics. This is not a Newtonian fluid we're working with here; it's much more complex than a single-phase flow."

Think about hte state of torpedoes now compared to those first deployed & then consider that level of development applied to super cavitating torpedos.

 

Even as the Shkval stands now (the version the Russians currently deploy -say they deploy) closes to within a few hundred meters at super cavitating speed then slows to conventional speeds & homes in a traditional manner, cutting down the time the targeted vessel has to manoeuvre & or respond immensely. If I have even a rough idea where you are, & launch a Shkval in your direction you pretty much have to start taking rapid evasive action to evade the Shkval you hear coming, & when you start violent manoeuvres I have actual knowledge of your position & have you on the defensive.

[D-Scythe]

& then the F-22 comes along & the air force is proudly showing off its own version...(again not because it is all that useful in & of itself, but because it is indicative of controllability at high AOA.)

 

First of all, although the Su-27 reaches over 100 degrees AOA (or something) while doing the Cobra, it is not really "controllable" at that AOA. It can't do anything else at that point except snap back down.

 

The Raptor is controllable at much higher AoA then any previous generation of fighters, but I don't think I've seen it do a "true" Cobra yet (where it snaps up and then back down).

 

Even as the Shkval stands now (the version the Russians currently deploy -say they deploy) closes to within a few hundred meters at super cavitating speed then slows to conventional speeds & homes in a traditional manner, cutting down the time the targeted vessel has to manoeuvre & or respond immensely. If I have even a rough idea where you are, & launch a Shkval in your direction you pretty much have to start taking rapid evasive action to evade the Shkval you hear coming, & when you start violent manoeuvres I have actual knowledge of your position & have you on the defensive.

 

You still have the problem that a supercavitating weapon is as subtle as a freaking train. Even if someone did manage to put a reliable guidance system on it, once you fire it, you're announcing your EXACT position to the whole world - a normal torp has the Shkval beat hands down here, being MUCH stealthier. With Shkval, you are EXTREMELY vulnerable to any return shot from the target or another enemy submarine in the area. Furthermore, while 230 mph is fast, it is not fast fast, especially when you consider that modern Western submarines can cruise silently along at 25 kts. You're basically selling the farm on a shot that almost certainly would NOT work. A silent submarine facing you frontally 7 clicks away is not a very big target for an unguided Shkval to hit, stationary, let alone an evasive one (which it can do silently at up to 25 kts).

 

Even worse, it's range is a fraction of normal torpedoes. That might be fine for third world brown water operations, to put on some cheap ex-Soviet Kilo submarine, but make no mistake - if that Kilo is not dead by the time it shoots a Shkval that probably will miss, it's *going* to be dead shortly after.

 

And finally, even if there is guidance on the thing, there's no way to update the torpedo in long range engagements, because in no way can it be wired. With the current technology, there is just no way to make an effective medium/long-range weapon out of a supercavitating torpedo. It doesn't matter if it slows down for the end-game - you can move a lot in the 30 to 70 seconds it spends supercavitating at 25 kts.

[Force_Feedback]

And please tell me what kind of sub can 'silently' go from lets say 25 kts to 10 in under a minute? ;)

 

And the Shkval was never designed as an offensive weapon, it was always profiled as a close-in last resort defensive measure, where a normal torpedo shot would result in a quick response, and kill from the other sub. And a Kilo is one of the stealthiest subs ever produced, even more considering the price of that thing (not talking quality here, probably crap). And firing soloutions are based on where the target WILL be in those '30 to 70 seconds'.

 

And stop this, I love American stuff, so I'll whine how good it is 'till I die act. It's getting pathetic.

 

BTW, that 'snapping down' of the Su-27 is a lomac-induced fantasy, it can keep its nose pointed way up there until it drops, and you can't blame gravity this time. ;)

[golfsierra2]

 

And stop this, I love American stuff, so I'll whine how good it is 'till I die act. It's getting pathetic.

 

:megalol:

[Prophet]

And please tell me what kind of sub can 'silently' go from lets say 25 kts to 10 in under a minute? ;)

 

And the Shkval was never designed as an offensive weapon, it was always profiled as a close-in last resort defensive measure, where a normal torpedo shot would result in a quick response, and kill from the other sub. And a Kilo is one of the stealthiest subs ever produced, even more considering the price of that thing (not talking quality here, probably crap). And firing soloutions are based on where the target WILL be in those '30 to 70 seconds'.

 

And stop this, I love American stuff, so I'll whine how good it is 'till I die act. It's getting pathetic.

 

BTW, that 'snapping down' of the Su-27 is a lomac-induced fantasy, it can keep its nose pointed way up there until it drops, and you can't blame gravity this time. ;)

 

Uh, the snapping down of the manuever is what makes it a Cobra. If it were to keep its nose up, then its wouldnt be a Cobra, just a high AOA verticle stall.

 

Besides, the maneuver is done by release the AOA limiter right? Do american planes allow this? I dont think so, so most likely the F22 can do the maneuver better, if the AOA limiter was able to be turned off.

 

And I dont see whining, quite rude to imply there is. Sad you have to resort to that tactic of words when you cant compete in the debate.

[Groove]

Originally Posted by D-Scythe

Snap shot at what? It's not like submarines advertise their position whenever they launch a torpedo - what, you think all torpedoes go hot instantly when they get launched? Like the Shkval? Usually, normal torpedoes wait until the launching submarine is some distance away before cranking up the engine.

 

Until you can prove your info by some serious source i say you are wrong.

 

In a sub vs sub scenario opening the torpedo tube can tell the enemy your position because this stuff is making noise. And launching a torpedo out of the tube is made by pressurized air...

 

How is the silent launch process made in your submarine warefare ? A 688i attack sub ( or any other ) have a TMA firing solution for a target. Then they stop the ship ( if they arent at 0 knots ). Then they flood the torpedo tube, open it and use the the reverse throttle momentum for sliding the torpedo out of the tube and then they drive backwards for some thousands yards while spooling the data cable to the torpedo and then they set it on active ?

 

Sorry, but in my Submarine Warefare world things are slightly different ;)

[wsoul2k]

silently at 25 kts humm i dont think so....maybe at 4 kts or 5 kts maximum

[Pilotasso]

No, U-212 for example can do 30 knots with 18 on silent.

[Perry]

The Shkval is a very 'interesting' weapon but, I too think, it is very limited. It is more an underwater rocket than a torpedo.

 

I used to 'play' dangerous water (ok you can laugh) and I became good enough to sim it without any help from the software. The possibilities to use the Shkval effectively were not numerous. In pretty much every scenario (defensive or offensive) it was much more effective to use a torpedo (any kind of torp) than the Shkavl. The only targets I could hit with it were big and slow boats such as tankers. Others boats such as frigate and fast boats could avoid the Shkval easily (or just hope for targeting error) and then immediatly counter attack because the Shkavl has a very limited duration and as soons as it is over, the enemy boat can come back on the offensive.

 

I made my opinion on the Shkval both with publicly available datas and throught my experience on DW.

I know I am not an expert but it was my 0.30 cts :)

 

 

No, U-212 for example can do 30 knots with 18 on silent.

 

At 18 knots the sub will not be silent...And it will be completly deaf too...And its autonomy will plummet too...

[D-Scythe]

Until you can prove your info by some serious source i say you are wrong.

 

In a sub vs sub scenario opening the torpedo tube can tell the enemy your position because this stuff is making noise. And launching a torpedo out of the tube is made by pressurized air...

 

How is the silent launch process made in your submarine warefare ? A 688i attack sub ( or any other ) have a TMA firing solution for a target. Then they stop the ship ( if they arent at 0 knots ). Then they flood the torpedo tube, open it and use the the reverse throttle momentum for sliding the torpedo out of the tube and then they drive backwards for some thousands yards while spooling the data cable to the torpedo and then they set it on active ?

 

Sorry, but in my Submarine Warefare world things are slightly different ;)

 

Firstly, they could flood the tube well before actual launch, for one. And secondly, you don't think the people who make subs and torpedoes have been trying to make the whole launching thing as stealthy as possible? And thirdly, even if they didn't, a torpedo launch at 5000 yards will still be much more difficult to get a fix on than a Shkval launch.

 

So what if it's not completely silent? You're still evading the point that it is MORE silent. *Much* more silent.

 

silently at 25 kts humm i dont think so....maybe at 4 kts or 5 kts maximum

 

Most new Western submarines are very silent across a wide speed range. The Seawolf-class attack submarines are reportedly more silent at 25 kts than a 688i at pierside.

 

And the Shkval was never designed as an offensive weapon, it was always profiled as a close-in last resort defensive measure, where a normal torpedo shot would result in a quick response, and kill from the other sub.

 

My problem is people over-hyping the weapon to something that it's not. It definitely won't even make the top 10 weapons to attack an attack submarine with - in fact, it shouldn't even be ranked.

 

And firing soloutions are based on where the target WILL be in those '30 to 70 seconds'.

 

Again, the target CANNOT possibly miss a Shkval launch. It has AMPLE time for evasive manuevers - what, you think the target sub cannot change direction? Not many sub captains are going to cooperate with your Shkval firing solution and NOT change direction.

 

Sheesh, why do people still dispute this point? It's ridiculous - probably more ridiculous than american die-hards.

 

BTW, that 'snapping down' of the Su-27 is a lomac-induced fantasy, it can keep its nose pointed way up there until it drops, and you can't blame gravity this time.

 

What are you talking about? You HAVE to snap back down eventually, even if you don't have to do it right away. There is NO other option for the Flanker at 100o AoA - snap back down now or later. Why you would wanna snap back down later and stay a slow, easy target for a longer period of time is beyond me though.

 

If it just stays up there till it drops, then the manuever is neither controllable or the Cobra.

[wsoul2k]

Again, as I ALSO already said in this thread...to employ those active devices, they have to know where to look. If the world were actually at war, things probably would have turned out a little differently for that sub during one of the many times he was forced to run near the surface on his diesel engines to recharge his batteries. He would have very likely been detected, tracked, and killed long before he got to his destination.

 

 

Ok IguanaKing but even if we are at war an diesel sub can sneak in from 250 nm ...hit the target....then sneak out another 250 nm before he need recharge the batery....IMHO this is a LOT of space to search for in an 360 degres possible directions.....

 

AND it have been done before in an NATO exercecise with full scort (AIR and NAVAL )as it should be in real war scenario

[GGTharos]

You can send up an E-2C ... if the sub surfaces it'll be found.

[BladeLWS]

If someone were to fire a Shkval at a US sub, you can be assured that the captain is gonna go balls to wall and get out the way.

[Pilotasso]

BTW I have been reading about the U-212 and found out that is has been superseded. The new ship is the U-214, and can dive to full 400m and is suposed to be capable of deep ocean operations.

 

The Portuguese navy considered at first the U-209, a successfull family of subs that have been increasing in size and charestics over the 30 years of its history, and the French scorpene.

 

Now it gets funny. The staff here started to look at the scorpene with more interest because its AIP system was easier to integrate (because at the delivery they were suposed to be simple diesel with an AIP upgrade for later).

 

But the germans seeing this came back to counter attack the french with the U-214 wich had a better AIP from factory. The french went on screaming that the competition for the aquisition was between the Scorpene and the U-209, so the german vessels were presented as a new U-209PN designation, wich has nothing to do with the type 209 but a maskerated U-214.

 

The U-209PN (U-214) won, and is the one on order (2 examples with a 3rd as option), scheduled for service in 2009 but currently behind by 1 year.

[Groove]

a torpedo launch at 5000 yards will still be much more difficult to get a fix on than a Shkval launch.

 

As soon as you launch a conventional torpedo or a Skhval you will get a torpedo fired on your launch position. Its a wild shot just to give you something to do and eventually let you do evasive manouvers which will cut your wire to the torpedo which isnt a guarantee that the attackers torpedo will miss but it have lower pk chances.

 

Its normal to flood the torpedo tube before launch, i forgot that in this forum here everything must be written exactly like in real world. Im still waiting for your source for this attack mode where you put a torpedo silently into water and drive way and let it go active after you are not in the direct attack area ;)

[Groove]

You can send up an E-2C ... if the sub surfaces it'll be found.

 

Or you can get away from the continental shelf and dive under a termal layer. But hey if you attack US of A they will send probably more than one Orion after you :D

[GGTharos]

We were talking about a diesel sub that needs to recharge though ;)

[D-Scythe]

As soon as you launch a conventional torpedo or a Skhval you will get a torpedo fired on your launch position. Its a wild shot just to give you something to do and eventually let you do evasive manouvers which will cut your wire to the torpedo which isnt a guarantee that the attackers torpedo will miss but it have lower pk chances.

 

Again, one more time, you cannot possibly derive a good firing solution in the tiny timeframe of an incoming enemy torpedo for a Shkval revenge shot, but you can with a normal torpedo, cause it can search out its target by itself. In this end, you only need to get it in the general area of your attacker, which data from your search systems provide when you start to pick up enemy fishes in the water.

 

With the Shkval, the general area of the target is not good enough, cause it's basically an unguided rocket. So unless the revenge snapshot is happening at point blank, the weapon is next to *useless*.

 

Im still waiting for your source for this attack mode where you put a torpedo silently into water and drive way and let it go active after you are not in the direct attack area ;)

 

What source? The idea of putting your torpedoes as silently in the water as possible to minimize the PK of any return revenge shot has been at the forefront of both submarine and torpedo design/development/tactics since the conception of the weapon.

 

If you wanna believe that a Shkval launch makes the attacker just as vulnerable to a return shot from its target (and any other enemy submarines in the area) as a torpedo, then go right ahead. You don't need me to google that for you, a 5 year old can do that.

[GGTharos]

There's no such thing as putting a torpedo silently into the water. THere were some SWIMOUT trials, but they didn't succeed as well as they could have for what were probably expected and predicted reasons.

 

In addition, at 5000m if you hear a torpedo shot you PING the guy and you get a position. You have plenty of time for this ;) THat's /if/ you are on an old piece of (#*&$(#*& that cannot actually range such short distances passively and instantly.

[Groove]

Yeah GG i know you have to snorkel in some time. But i think they will find you before this in the even you have put some torpedoes in a USA harbor ^^.

 

And like GG mentioned - its a wild shot just to give the attacker something to do. Im talking about conventional torpedoes. And you know directly where the enemy shot from when he shoots :D

 

There's no such thing as putting a torpedo silently into the water. THere were some SWIMOUT trials, but they didn't succeed as well as they could have for what were probably expected and predicted reasons.

 

x2

[Trident]

You're kidding right? Let's do some math. Assuming a speed of 230 mph, it takes the Shkval 78 seconds to cross 10 000 yards or 10 miles. Even if the target submarine moves at 10 kts/18.2 kmph (considering modern subs have silent speeds twice that), it would've drifted ~400 m/1300 ft away in 78 seconds (the 5 mile/10120 yard engagement range). So, even if you had the EXACT position (bearing in horizontal and vertical) of the target, and launched the Shkval at the target with ZERO dispersion, The Shkval warhead needs to have a blast radius of almost half a kilometer to have any chance of killing the target evading at 10 kts.

 

There are currently about as many submarines with a silent patrol speed *significantly* beyond 10kts in the whole world as there are fingers on one of my hands. Considering how long the Shkval has been in service I call the relevance of recent developments like Seawolf and Virginia to this discussion into question. Trying to second-guess the reasons for introducing Shkval two decades ago just because there are *now* submarines on the horizon that have a pretty good chance of evading one seems pretty far fetched.

 

In addition, at 5000m if you hear a torpedo shot you PING the guy and you get a position. You have plenty of time for this ;) THat's /if/ you are on an old piece of (#*&$(#*& that cannot actually range such short distances passively and instantly.

 

Exactly - when the other guy knows where you are well enough to shoot at you then there's no longer any point in hiding. Get his position and speed vector with your active sonar and give him a well-aimed Shkval to think about, but I suppose if D-Scythe seriously believes the shooter will not lead his target before firing a Shkval then we have no argument ;)

 

It's that sort of quick-draw contest where this weapon excells, be it as a last-ditch defence or to kill a contact that suddenly emerged at point blank range from background noise or fluctuations in salinity that are so common in littoral environments.

 

Again: Shkval-rebuttals, such as the article D-Scythe posted, which are based on the assumption that the threat submarine is armed with Shkvals and Shkvals only completely miss the point of this weapon. A submarine armed exclusively with Shkvals makes about as much sense as a F-15 loaded only with AIM-9s - but that doesn't mean the Sidewinder is useless as part of a balanced A/A-loadout.