High drag bombing runs suicidal?

[Nerd1000]

They may be the best option when the main air defense threat is long range SAM systems like the SA-2 or even SA-6, but it seems to me that in a typical DCS mission using a high drag bomb attack is basically suicide. The stock mission where you're meant to bomb some mobile supply depots is a perfect example: the trucks are surrounded by Shilkas, and any attempt at a low level bombing run (even when you run in at mach 1.2) is doomed to be cut short by a burst of 23mm shells. Jinking and similar evasive maneuvers work to get you over the target, but once you're there you must level out and fly straight to aim/release your weapons- at this point the AA gunners get their chance, and blow you out of the sky just as your bombs start leaving the racks.

 

Anyone got advice on how to make this work better? Or should I do pop-up dive bombing attacks with normal bombs?

[Bailee]

Try BK90 or Rockets？

[Einherjer]

What was your altitude?

[Nerd1000]

What was your altitude?

 

No more than 50m agl. Suppose I could try flying lower...

[probad]

to a certain degree this is realistic. the shilka, as a radar guided aaa unit, was rather modern in the viggens time -- and as doctrine is required to dictate the design, the viggen's playbook was written for an environment predating radar guided aaa.

 

the proliferation of radar guided aaa and manpads drove the shift to the sead + medium altitude "roll back" doctrine.

in the end the raf tornado losses in desert storm proved how out of date the low altitude strike concept was.

 

i'd just use the rb-05 or better yet the maverick. if you have a special attachment to low altitude high drag passes, im not sure if there's a satisfactorily realistic solution currently beyond using units that can't shoot up. you could use more complex terrain to make it easier to break contact before and after the pass against missile units if you are feeling adventurous.

Edited August 14, 2017 by probad

[Nerd1000]

to a certain degree this is realistic. the shilka, as a radar guided aaa unit, was rather modern in the viggens time -- and as doctrine is required to dictate the design, the viggen's playbook was written for an environment predating radar guided aaa.

 

the proliferation of radar guided aaa and manpads drove the shift to the sead + medium altitude "roll back" doctrine.

in the end the raf tornado losses in desert storm proved how out of date the low altitude strike concept was.

 

i'd just use the rb-05 or better yet the maverick. if you have a special attachment to low altitude high drag passes, im not sure if there's a satisfactorily realistic solution currently beyond using units that can't shoot up. you could use more complex terrain to make it easier to break contact before and after the pass against missile units if you are feeling adventurous.

 

Even non-standoff weapons like the low-drag bombs or rockets work against shilka defended targets- normally you can line up the target, release and then take evasive action before the bullets reach you. They're more accurate than the high drag bombs too :music_whistling:.

 

I'm just kinda annoyed that the default loadout for so many missions is a weapon that you cannot safely deploy.

[WinterH]

Some of the ground units in DCS are ridiculously accurate and dangerous against air targets, BMP-2 would be an example, they are a worse trouble than Shilka...

 

But in this case, that's exactly what the Shilka was designed to achieve.

 

Only way to reliably use such attacks on target with lots of AAA capability would be making heavy use of terrain masking, both going in and out. But if area is too flat to allow that, prrhaps you should use BK-90s or rockets instead.

 

Approaching veeeeeeeery low works against missiles but not sure if it'll work against AAA.

[MBot]

The answer is two folded. One one hand, the Shilka was developed to defend ground units against exactly this type of attack. So if the attack is single-ship with an observable approach, this outcome is to be expected. On the other hand, DCS often offers few clutter to mask an approach. Also the Shilka in DCS is not affected in any way by jammers or chaff, which might offer some degree of protection.

 

 

the proliferation of radar guided aaa and manpads drove the shift to the sead + medium altitude "roll back" doctrine.

in the end the raf tornado losses in desert storm proved how out of date the low altitude strike concept was.

 

That conclusion is questionable. Desert Storm was a special situation where the global military might of the United States, built up and designed to fight WWIII, was concentrated on just Iraq. Whether such safe altitudes could be established against a peer opponent is debatable. The losses of the Tornados also have to be put in context. The RAF would have cheered in joy if the Desert Storm loss rates could be repeated over Germany in a war against the Warsaw Pact.

[Fri13]

Just wait that 2.5 comes out. Then you will be able to have better change when the AI and the radar can't see through the trees and other concealment you have before your pop-up.

 

Then there is required in future that AI will be heavily improved, like add the simulation (dice rolling) of reaction times, aiming accuracies and most importantly random aiming by the non-guided firing.

 

Now it is just not even worth a joke how so many ground units are firing so accurate (or then totally inaccurate, like shooting 30 degree off-axis of directly approaching target???) and how they can react so quickly when just one unit spots something.

 

Then there are the typical problems of not modeled radar on the AAA vehicles like Shilka that makes them very vulnerable to a SEAD and all kind other things, as well very effective against current ground pounders that try to fly low.

 

So learning now some tactics is just so that you need to learn them off in the future.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I agree the bombs are the most interesting and challenging weapons for the viggen and I enjoying using them but the BMP 2 will shot you down first shot everytime. They are much more deadly than shilkas

[Nerd1000]

I agree the bombs are the most interesting and challenging weapons for the viggen and I enjoying using them but the BMP 2 will shot you down first shot everytime. They are much more deadly than shilkas

 

They're actually significantly worse shots than Shilkas. The problem is that there is usually lots of them in a formation, wheras there are rarely more than 2 Shilkas in the same group. Add to that the fact that they seem to fire constantly (Shilkas shoot in bursts) and their 30mm guns do significantly more damage than the Shilka's 23mm and you get a serious threat.

[Home Fries]

They're actually significantly worse shots than Shilkas. The problem is that there is usually lots of them in a formation, wheras there are rarely more than 2 Shilkas in the same group. Add to that the fact that they seem to fire constantly (Shilkas shoot in bursts) and their 30mm guns do significantly more damage than the Shilka's 23mm and you get a serious threat.

 

I've seen plenty of missions where a solo BMP-2 gets a first shot one hit crit on a bird. It happens more often than not, and quantity has nothing to do with it.

[Nerd1000]

I've seen plenty of missions where a solo BMP-2 gets a first shot one hit crit on a bird. It happens more often than not, and quantity has nothing to do with it.

 

I'm pretty sure that the game configs give the BMP-2 1/10th of the AA aimimg skill given to SPAAGs. That said, there may be other factors at play giving them their unrealistically high accuracy. You can avoid their shots by keeping your distance and making evasive maneuvers (don't fly in a straight line!). This works well in fast jets like the viggen, but isn't much help for helicopters because they're too slow to dodge.

 

Also I suspect that most other IFVs have similar plane sniping abilities, but rarely use them because they can't aim their guns up enough to shoot at you.

[mattebubben]

One of the big things that make the IFVs like the BMP-2 so dangerous is that its not as obvious that they are shooting at you.

 

When a Shilka or other SPAAGs are shooting at you its very easy to detect due to the massive amount of very bright tracers as well as radar warning.

 

Were as the BMP-2 (and other IFVs) have not as bright tracers and also fewer rounds fired so its much harder to see incomming rounds so often you dont know they are shooting until its to late.

 

So its possible one think they hit on their first shot just because one did not see the first ones.

 

But in general i agree that IFVs and the Bmp-2 especially are much to effective against Aircraft.

 

In the Viggen im more afraid of BMP-2s when flying at low altitudes (below 1000 meters) then i am shilkas.

 

And i feel like them hitting something traveling at mach 0.7-0.9 (and is not flying directly towards them) should be an extremely rare occurance rather then a common outcome.

[Flagrum]

You guys realizes that AI targeting capabilities were tuned down a couple of patches ago?

 

It is supposed to be a fair bit better/realistic now ... or is it still so bad?

[-IRRE-Rolluptito]

Have your wingman poping high and really fast with countermeasures pods, he'll make the AA busy, so you can destroy it.

 

We're so obsessed with technology in those jets that we often forgot basical tactics. :D

[Nerd1000]

Have your wingman poping high and really fast with countermeasures pods, he'll make the AA busy, so you can destroy it.

 

We're so obsessed with technology in those jets that we often forgot basical tactics. :D

 

My wingman is an AI, and he's a total moron: the last time I brought him on such a mission he got one spike from a shilka that was 20 km away from the target and immediately climbed to 6000m, exposing himself to the nearby SA-6 battery :doh: Naturally the SA-6 locked him up, causing him to jettison all his hardpoints. Having done that, he flew around in circles at around 500 km/h until the SA-6 hit him :mad:

[Home Fries]

My wingman is an AI, and he's a total moron: the last time I brought him on such a mission he got one spike from a shilka that was 20 km away from the target and immediately climbed to 6000m, exposing himself to the nearby SA-6 battery :doh: Naturally the SA-6 locked him up, causing him to jettison all his hardpoints. Having done that, he flew around in circles at around 500 km/h until the SA-6 hit him :mad:

 

Gotta train those nuggets! :megalol: