Flight model thoughts

[sdflyer]

By the way with all Spit that flight model discussion, I want to emphasize that DCS is excellent sims and I really enjoy it (despite curve frustration) :)

 

I have a friend who was instructor in F-5E, can't wait to let him try DCS . After all where else we can fly those exotic airplanes if not in the sim :)

[Alfredson007]

Among other there is common "junior" pilot problem that after Vr (lift off) inadequate right rudder produces left wing drop which most folks instinctively compensate with right aileron. However, all it takes to prevent left wind drop is sufficient right rudder.

 

All sources about Spitfire I have do mention right rudder in the take off, but never mention anything about using right aileron (unless it's right cross wind of course).

 

The key is to keep coordinated. Engine torque is roll, so you should compensate it with an aileron. You also need right rudder, but that is for yaw (when the nose goes side-by-side). If you push rudder the plane will eventually roll too. I always try to keep my "ball" centered, eventhough it's not ball in Spitfire. It's surprisingly easy, and i really love the artifical feel DCS spit provides, and in most cases you KNOW you're coordinated without looking at the "ball". (edit: unlike in the P51 where the ball management is worse imo)

 

About groundloop, i believe it's very well modeled. Free-castoring tail wheel, very narrow undercarriage etc.. when i land i gently plant the tail down with full aft elevator rise the flaps and kick the rudder, as the speed goes down i might need little bit of differential braking.

 

I find the landing to be difficult in a "right way" and take off in "wrong way". I think, in real spit the landing should be harder than taking off?

Edited August 25, 2017 by Alfredson007

[sdflyer]

The key is to keep coordinated. Engine torque is roll, so you should compensate it with an aileron. You also need right rudder, but that is for yaw (when the nose goes side-by-side). If you push rudder the plane will eventually roll too. I always try to keep my "ball" centered, eventhough it's not ball in Spitfire. It's surprisingly easy, and i really love the artifical feel DCS spit provides, and in most cases you KNOW you're coordinated without looking at the "ball".

 

 

 

About groundloop, i believe it's very well modeled. Free-castoring tail wheel, very narrow undercarriage etc.. when i land i gently plant the tail down with full aft elevator rise the flaps and kick the rudder, as the speed goes down i might need little bit of differential braking.

 

 

 

I find the landing to be difficult in a "right way" and take off in "wrong way". I think, in real spit the landing should be harder than taking off?

 

 

 

Well all airplanes I've flown "left wing drop" can be offset with sufficient right rudder. Now some of them require to set rudder trim prior take off, but that pretty much it.

 

Again I have to research to see more about Spitfire in this respect, but it seems now do a trick for take off

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alfredson007]

Well all airplanes I've flown "left wing drop" can be offset with sufficient right rudder. Now some of them require to set rudder trim prior take off, but that pretty much it.

 

Again I have to research to see more about Spitfire in this respect, but it seems now do a trick for take off

 

In the ground you use rudder to keep the nose aligned with runway, but if the plane starts to roll on ground you need aileron. DCS spitfire actually seems to do so abit, never seen any other module in any sim to do this. I love it.

 

in my mind the gyroscopic precession when the tail is getting / lifted up is the most difficult to master in DCS spitfire. You need to keep the plane on ground, but you need to control the tail, let it rise but not too much, nor too fast. With sensitive elevator it might get tricky. It causes yawing and all kinds of poop. This, in my mind, where the take off is made, everything prior and after is pretty straightforward.

[Yo-Yo]

Well all airplanes I've flown "left wing drop" can be offset with sufficient right rudder. Now some of them require to set rudder trim prior take off, but that pretty much it.

 

Again I have to research to see more about Spitfire in this respect, but it seems now do a trick for take off

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Any powerful fighter needs a bit of right aileron at low speed. Their torque relative to wing and stab area is much greater.

[DD_Fenrir]

I noticed on Yo yo take off video he is using right aileron on take off roll I thought it was done in order to compensate for the right crosswind. However, it seems like there is no other way to maintain directional control without right aileron to offset torque and especially gyroscopic precession (when lift a tale). While it is helps to take off, from what I understand it must be sufficiently enough to compensate with just right rudder!

 

Most Spitfire pilots - of all marks - commence their takeoff roll with some right aileron in, because torque does indeed want to dip the left wing slightly.

 

I recently went for a trip in a T.Mk.IX and the pilot had about one-quarter to one-third right aileron, though there was headwind with a slight (~20 degree) right component.

 

Among other there is common "junior" pilot problem that after Vr (lift off) inadequate right rudder produces left wing drop which most folks instinctively compensate with right aileron. However, all it takes to prevent left wind drop is sufficient right rudder.

 

This behaviour happens if you lift off too soon in ground effect and then transition through the GE boundary with insufficient airspeed. Keep her planted on the mains in a tail-low but not tail down attitude and she'll lift off of her own accord cleanly and you'll transition the GE boundary without any drama whatsoever.

 

All sources about Spitfire I have do mention right rudder in the take off, but never mention anything about using right aileron (unless it's right cross wind of course).

 

Well plenty of vids I have seen do show this course of corrective pilot action and one even remarks upon it:

 

Now in early Spit modesl I believe empennage was too small, and so rudder authority was lacking. Because of that Spit only take off and land into the wind (dirt field allowed it). Later that problem was cured, and I think mark IX should not have it at all.

 

The opposite is in fact the case. In early marks the rudder and fin area were sufficient. As more horsepower and propeller blades were added this created a destabilising effect and demanded greater vertical area on the rear to compensate. The small rudder Mk.IX has IIRC the same fin and rudder area as a Mk.I! This is why many later Mk.IXs, many of the VIIIs and most XVIs had a broader chord rudder with a tall point.

 

Also I don't know what is a deal with oversensitive ground looping. I wish Yo yo would show a bit more video on deceleration and full stop !

 

It's a tail dragger with a free castering tailwheel - physics, that's why! :smilewink:

 

Judging by how hard my pilot was working the pedals as we landed, seems spot on to me.

 

And, once you have sufficient practise, it is very much not impossible; in fact it is very repeatable:

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by DD_Fenrir

[Yo-Yo]

Ok so I changed my curves to be more linear: pitch, roll, and yaw respectfully

0 100 80 0

0 100 72 0

0 100 100 0

 

I noticed on Yo yo take off video he is using right aileron on take off roll I thought it was done in order to compensate for the right crosswind. However, it seems like there is no other way to maintain directional control without right aileron to offset torque and especially gyroscopic precession (when lift a tale). While it is helps to take off, from what I understand it must be sufficiently enough to compensate with just right rudder!

 

Among other there is common "junior" pilot problem that after Vr (lift off) inadequate right rudder produces left wing drop which most folks instinctively compensate with right aileron. However, all it takes to prevent left wind drop is sufficient right rudder.

 

All sources about Spitfire I have do mention right rudder in the take off, but never mention anything about using right aileron (unless it's right cross wind of course).

 

Now in early Spit modesl I believe empennage was too small, and so rudder authority was lacking. Because of that Spit only take off and land into the wind (dirt field allowed it). Later that problem was cured, and I think mark IX should not have it at all.

 

Also I don't know what is a deal with oversensitive ground looping. I wish Yo yo would show a bit more video on deceleration and full stop !

FRAPS I used to capture the video limits it to 30 s. I resumed the record and I have the last part of this track, but I was very short in time today to upload it.

Will be on Monday. Or I can record another video starting a bit later. But believe me, there is no problem to roll straight as you do not forget to use brakes along the rudder as speed bleeds.

[Alfredson007]

FRAPS I used to capture the video limits it to 30 s. I resumed the record and I have the last part of this track, but I was very short in time today to upload it.

Will be on Monday. Or I can record another video starting a bit later. But believe me, there is no problem to roll straight as you do not forget to use brakes along the rudder as speed bleeds.

 

If you are using Nvidia cards just use the geforce experience, it has virtually no fps impact, can do very high quality videos etc. I'm sure AMD has something similar for ATI too. It's like magic after fraps etc

[sdflyer]

FRAPS I used to capture the video limits it to 30 s. I resumed the record and I have the last part of this track, but I was very short in time today to upload it.

Will be on Monday. Or I can record another video starting a bit later. But believe me, there is no problem to roll straight as you do not forget to use brakes along the rudder as speed bleeds.

 

 

 

Yes I've been trying that. 50% of the time I get ground loop just before complete stop. Which is weird because it seems I don't do much to cause it.

 

Another thing I notice if push tail wheel down during the taxi (controls aft) Spit turn very quickly, but at the same time most likely to groundloop

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sdflyer]

FRAPS I used to capture the video limits it to 30 s. I resumed the record and I have the last part of this track, but I was very short in time today to upload it.

Will be on Monday. Or I can record another video starting a bit later. But believe me, there is no problem to roll straight as you do not forget to use brakes along the rudder as speed bleeds.

 

 

Just in case. There is freeware program called OBS Studio

https://obsproject.com/

 

Served me well in different sims

[sdflyer]

Most Spitfire pilots - of all marks - commence their takeoff roll with some right aileron in, because torque does indeed want to dip the left wing slightly.

 

I recently went for a trip in a T.Mk.IX and the pilot had about one-quarter to one-third right aileron, though there was headwind with a slight (~20 degree) right component.

 

 

I have several books dedicated to Spitfire, but don't remember reading anything about it. So I'll have to search for it more (unless you can give me any book reference in this respect).

 

What it seems to me from you description it could be a crosswind correction Of course the easiest way to get wind direction to look at a wind sock after line up. I always teach my students to do this before take off or during short final on approach. Unless they got lazy and just request "wind check" from tower :D

 

This behaviour happens if you lift off too soon in ground effect and then transition through the GE boundary with insufficient airspeed. Keep her planted on the mains in a tail-low but not tail down attitude and she'll lift off of her own accord cleanly and you'll transition the GE boundary without any drama whatsoever.

Did you get a stick time in Spit? Most videos I find looks like tail well off the ground during take off. There shouldn't be insufficient speed if lift off committed at proper Vr so escaping ground effect should not be an issue. The only exception to that would so called "soft field" take off in tricycle gear. In this case pilot lift off prior Vr and hands in ground effect until Vx and then climbs out.

 

 

 

Well plenty of vids I have seen do show this course of corrective pilot action and one even remarks upon it:

Thanks I have purchased this video already. Pilot actually keeping right stick for the crosswind correction (per his comments)

 

 

The opposite is in fact the case. In early marks the rudder and fin area were sufficient. As more horsepower and propeller blades were added this created a destabilising effect and demanded greater vertical area on the rear to compensate. The small rudder Mk.IX has IIRC the same fin and rudder area as a Mk.I! This is why many later Mk.IXs, many of the VIIIs and most XVIs had a broader chord rudder with a tall point.

Unless I'm mistaken that Duke video above narrative suggest quite opposite. The first Spits had problem with cross wind due to limited rudder authority and were less suitable to take from runway vs open field. there are several pilot been interviewed who flown Spit in the past and at the present.

 

 

It's a tail dragger with a free castering tailwheel - physics, that's why! :smilewink:

 

Judging by how hard my pilot was working the pedals as we landed, seems spot on to me.

Thanks for the tip. I do have tailwheel time in Citabria, Decathlon and SNJ-4. But I should confess I only flown those from paved runways - never from grass fields. But I don't think it made much more difference :joystick:

[msalama]

Yah but Sdflyer, what you've got there is still an "I-feel" / opinion standpoint. Nothing wrong with that per se - hell, I'm an opinionated bastard myself so I should know - but opinions, as we know, are like rear orifices still; in that everyone's got one...

 

PS. Again, not saying you're necessarily wrong at all. But what's needed here is evidence regardless.

[msalama]

But I'm actually beginning to think that this is again a man-machine problem mostly (i.e. an eager desktop pilot operating a badly-configured plastic controller).

 

EDIT: or rather an interface problem if you like

Edited August 25, 2017 by msalama

[sdflyer]

Yah but Sdflyer, what you've got there is still an "I-feel" / opinion standpoint. Nothing wrong with that per se - hell, I'm an opinionated bastard myself so I should know - but opinions, as we know, are like rear orifices still; in that everyone's got one...

 

PS. Again, not saying you're necessarily wrong at all. But what's needed here is evidence regardless.

 

 

 

Agreed! I used to do training in FAA certified multi engine sim. Well with all good stuff in it, it felt nothing like real airplane. However, procedurally it was very useful tool.

Now DCS in this respect light years ahead in term of actual sensation of flight . But I think there should be compromise or a tweak if between numbers and sense-motor responds .For example many airplane designed to have rudder resistance that make noticeable hard to push them all way in. CH rudder never can deliver this feeling, but I think there way of adjustment that can simulate it . Overcompensation with the rudder can bring a lot of consequences including fatal cross controls spins on base to final.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David OC]

I realize you have plenty of experience with different aircraft sdflyer, not sure if you know this, because you only registered on the forum this month. Just in case you don't know, ED's publisher is The Fighter Collection, they have owned, flown and restore many types of Spitfire, these are the guy's that have tested the Spitfire and other ww2 birds for DCS.

 

Art-J did mention this on the first page, not sure if you knew the relationship between ED and TFC. Anyway, we do enjoy a good debate around here:)

 

 

Nick Grey of TFC, who's flown every mark of Spit on the Islands and helps as a Spit flight model advisor for the ED team wrote that in the real thing at VNE about 1 cm of control column deflection would yield 6 G. Mind You, that is with this peculiar three feet long column, mounted at the bottom of the fuselage. Obviously the pilot in the video wasn't flying that fast, but he didn't need much more of the elevator input for all the aerobatics, which seem to confirm the above statement.

 

The only way to help with controls would be to have better FFB sticks, look at the car sims today, they have all the cool top end gear because of the selling volume, which can pay for the licensing, wish someone would make an open source FFB software for flight sim controllers, we have great sticks on the market, having FFB would take them to the next level. Guy's here still find and use the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 1998.

 

I don't believe you could program this feel you talk about, without it becoming a very fake "game" and upsetting many. The only thing that I see that can help here is FFB and the ability to turn the FFB force up and down to get the right stick feel, same as the car sim's have.

 

 

.

Edited August 26, 2017 by David OC

[Art-J]

By the way, three pages have passed since Yo-Yo's videos and nobody comments on these improved engine sounds :D?

 

Yo-Yo, is that a mod, or something new brewing in one of ED's internal builds?

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

By the way, three pages have passed since Yo-Yo's videos and nobody comments on these improved engine sounds :D?

 

Yo-Yo, is that a mod, or something new brewing in one of ED's internal builds?

 

Yeah! I noticed that too, but I didn't ask because I thought the video had not been recorded by Yo-Yo himself ?

[petsild]

After so many years of use is still MSFFB2 indispensable device. Once you try, the Warthog will go :) in the closet.

[Art-J]

Yeah! I noticed that too, but I didn't ask because I thought the video had not been recorded by Yo-Yo himself ?

 

Oh it's his old channel allright, though used only for FM demonstrations in the threads like this one :D.

[Kyso4ek]

Stalling is how you perform a three point landing.

 

Well i got to say its really stupid to design a plane which is required to stall during landing .

[Yo-Yo]

By the way, three pages have passed since Yo-Yo's videos and nobody comments on these improved engine sounds :D?

 

Yo-Yo, is that a mod, or something new brewing in one of ED's internal builds?

 

I never use sound mods... I trust my ears and our guru btd... :-) Yes, it's our reworked sound.

[Solty]

I never use sound mods... I trust my ears and our guru btd... :-) Yes, it's our reworked sound.

 

Great to hear. Is it only for spitfire or all planes? :)

[msalama]

which is required to stall during landing

 

Of course it's not required since you can do 2-pointer, or wheel, landings as well. But 3-point, or stall,landings are what you usually do in a taildragger still.

[DD_Fenrir]

Stalls a bit strong - more accurately it should be a settle or sink.

 

There is a point when in the three point attitude the wings are generating lift but insufficiently to overcome the weight of the airframe, ergo the nose is high but the velocity vector of the airframe is forward and down. It's at this stage you should be 30-60cm over the runway and in a nice tail-low attitude.

 

A stall is a complete breakdown of any lift generation whatsoever - you reach this point during your landing then you've flared too hard or too early/high and it's gonna be a bumpy arrival at best.

[sdflyer]

I realize you have plenty of experience with different aircraft sdflyer, not sure if you know this, because you only registered on the forum this month. Just in case you don't know, ED's publisher is The Fighter Collection, they have owned, flown and restore many types of Spitfire, these are the guy's that have tested the Spitfire and other ww2 birds for DCS.

 

Art-J did mention this on the first page, not sure if you knew the relationship between ED and TFC.

.

 

Of course it's impressive, and I'm sure that Spitfire modeled up to the best knowledge. However, I'm debating of tweaks relative to control inputs we currently use. If it's impossible to accommodate than why bother to model airplanes on the first place? Just saying.