M2000C carrier landing

[wernst]

 

Landing the M2000C on a carrier seems to be some challenge. I calculated length of the carrier (Carl Vinson) vs. landing speed.

And did some tests to learn the effect of the dragging chute on landing roll. (carrier speed 30 kts, head wind 11 kts).

Results: It seemed to be somehow possible and I flew some carrier approaches.

To my own surprise I was able to get the Mirage down safely after the third try.

I didn't apply neither wheel brakes nor speed brakes, the Mirage stopped after about 200m. . . Hmm.

 

I think it's not possible with the real bird. The real dragging chute won't slow down the plane within 200m.

Edited August 22, 2017 by wernst

[Davee]

Nicely done!:thumbup:

[Oceandar]

Why no cockpit view?

[Robert31178]

"You're a little low Cougar...."

[wernst]

"You're a little low Cougar...."

 

"Yes, signal officer".

Low glide slope (low altitude approach), high AoA for speed as low as possible.

You have to touch down at the very beginning of the RWY with spot landing (IAS was 124 kts at touch down).

A spot landing with a glide slope of 1 or 2 deg will increase speed and bouncing after touch down or crash.

Give it a try yourself. Don’t forget, it’s all about the FM of the sim.

The real delta wing M2000C is by design not qualified for carrier landings.

Edited August 23, 2017 by wernst

[wernst]

Why no cockpit view?

 

In this special flight cockpit view would have cinematic meaning only.

The extreme approach configuration here is the key to be shown:

very low glide slope, low altitude approach and extreme high AoA for speed as low as possible.

(IAS at touchdown was 124 kts!)

[Buzzles]

So, jist of this thread is you think the 'chute is too effective in DCS currently?

[wernst]

So, jist of this thread is you think the 'chute is too effective in DCS currently?

 

Each parachute jumper knows that it takes at least 2 seconds after the chute opens

until it generates its max drag (accumulating enough compressed air)

 

Here 2 (of many other) examples of MIL jets deploying dragging the chute

 

After Mirage F1 touch down the jet rolls more than 20 sec with chute open.

 

The landing roll of Eurofighter here was also more than 20 sec.

 

But in the sim the M2000C dragging chute stops the jet to full stop within 3 - 4 (!) sec.

Is it real? Not at all.

Edited August 23, 2017 by wernst

[Looney]

Don't forget he's doing 124 kts IAS - (30 carrier speed + 11 knots headwind) = 124 - 41 = 83 knots ground speed, that isn't much at all although I do agree with the short stopping distance.

[-IRRE-Rolluptito]

The real delta wing M2000C is by design not qualified for carrier landings.

Nothing on the mirage is qualified for that. But that's a nice performance sir. :)

[Dingo_Bob]

Don't forget he's doing 124 kts IAS - (30 carrier speed + 11 knots headwind) = 124 - 41 = 83 knots ground speed,.

 

and before this experiment the deck hands were sent out at dawn with the blow torches to prep the flat top and get it as tacky as possible :D

[wernst]

and before this experiment the deck hands were sent out at dawn with the blow torches to prep the flat top and get it as tacky as possible :D

 

Is there any useful substance for us in this grandiloquent reply . . .?

[Fri13]

I think it's not possible with the real bird. The real dragging chute won't slow down the plane within 200m.

 

Has manufacturer tried to stop that palen in same configuration within 200m?

 

That someone hasn't done it, doesn't mean it ain't possible.

 

But if someone has tried to make shortest possible landing and goes past 200m, then.... It shouldn't be possible.

 

Need to as well remember that carrier landings are possible to do with many planes, but they ain't designed to withstand the forces for their operational time. Like even when a F-15C has a tail hook and you could that way stop it on the carrier, it ain't being used for that at all.

 

So is the Mirage even rated to do such landings in first place, if yes, then has anyone done any such landings? If yes, then your test should reflect reality. Otherwise not possible.

[wernst]

 

. . . . .then your test should reflect reality.

 

The result of my test flight does reflect the properties of the sim flight model (FM) only.

 

I was already saying in another post here that slowing any real MIL jet to full stop within 3 seconds (equals 200m here)

with the aid of a dragging chute is simply impossible.

 

Here 2 examples from real MIL jets which are deploying dragging chutes.

 

After Mirage F1 touch down the jet rolls more than 20 sec with chute open.

 

The landing roll of Eurofighter here was also more than 20 sec.

 

A dragging chute can slow theses real jets to full stop within 20 seconds or more.

 

The M2000C simulated dragging chute slows the jet to full stop within 3 - 4 (!) sec.

This can’t never be real.

[myHelljumper]

The result of my test flight does reflect the properties of the sim flight model (FM) only.

 

I was already saying in another post here that slowing any real MIL jet to full stop within 3 seconds (equals 200m here)

with the aid of a dragging chute is simply impossible.

 

Here 2 examples from real MIL jets which are deploying dragging chutes.

 

After Mirage F1 touch down the jet rolls more than 20 sec with chute open.

 

The landing roll of Eurofighter here was also more than 20 sec.

 

A dragging chute can slow theses real jets to full stop within 20 seconds or more.

 

The M2000C simulated dragging chute slows the jet to full stop within 3 - 4 (!) sec.

This can’t never be real.

 

Does the chute stop the plane in 3 - 4 seconds when you land it at the correct approach speed on a normal runway ?

[Pikey]

Does the chute stop the plane in 3 - 4 seconds when you land it at the correct approach speed on a normal runway ?

I want to know this too.

Carrier test is a good visual queue for the length of the stop, for sure, but then you made a landing that can't really be repeated for safeties sake, given i'd be surprised you can see the deck and had to guess! Carrier aside then, would it not be worth performing two airfield landings with spot on normal approaches and AoA, one with, and one without the chute and record the total stopping distance?

[wernst]

Does the chute stop the plane in 3 - 4 seconds when you land it at the correct approach speed on a normal runway ?

 

You may try it yourself.

Of course, this kind of extreme high AoA and extreme low speed carrier approach is more than hazardous, it’s luck if you succeed and survive.

 

Approaching an airport with high AoA and low speed (both at limits but still safe) I could slow down the M2000C to ALMOST stop after 350m,

only dragging chute deployed. It took 8 seconds, not 3 as on the carrier and not 20 seconds as in real life.

 

Without chute it’s the question in which manner you apply wheel brakes (and how much brake repair costs).

 

Again, the only issue which I want to report is that M2000C carrier landing is possible, but with the given FM of the sim only.

No Mirage pilot will never ever try it in a real mission.

[Fri13]

I don't think either that a such chute could stop an aircraft at such time by alone the mass that crafts has.

Otherwise carriers wouldn't use cables and hooks to catch the plane and that is 1 second stop anyways, and chute would do it 3-4x slower only?

 

But those videos are not about fastest possible stopping, they let planes to roll and anyways takes things easy for craft.

 

So what really is possible doesn't mean it is wise to do at all, as it can be single time you do it.

 

--

I usually post from my phone so please excuse any typos, inappropriate punctuation and capitalization, missing words and general lack of cohesion and sense in my posts.....

[wernst]

So what really is possible doesn't mean it is wise to do at all, as it can be single time you do it.

 

I couldn't have said better. . .

[Pikey]

But are you saying that the carrier deck itself is contributing to the faster than expected total stop distance?

Seems to be three or more different issues overlapping based on those findings.

1) Chute is overpowered

2) Carrier deck is also "sticky"

3) Brakes and/or another FM issue with the non chute landings

 

Thoughts?

 

You may try it yourself.

Of course, this kind of extreme high AoA and extreme low speed carrier approach is more than hazardous, it’s luck if you succeed and survive.

 

Approaching an airport with high AoA and low speed (both at limits but still safe) I could slow down the M2000C to ALMOST stop after 350m,

only dragging chute deployed. It took 8 seconds, not 3 as on the carrier and not 20 seconds as in real life.

 

Without chute it’s the question in which manner you apply wheel brakes (and how much brake repair costs).

 

Again, the only issue which I want to report is that M2000C carrier landing is possible, but with the given FM of the sim only.

No Mirage pilot will never ever try it in a real mission.

[wernst]

But are you saying that the carrier deck itself is contributing to the faster than expected total stop distance?

Seems to be three or more different issues overlapping based on those findings.

1) Chute is overpowered

2) Carrier deck is also "sticky"

3) Brakes and/or another FM issue with the non chute landings

 

Thoughts?

 

Chute dragging in this sim is much overpowered, not even near to reality.

 

Or carrier desk is sticky - but how and why? Any glue?

 

I did quite some Su-33 carrier landings; some of them were smashing touch downs (“Oh my god” type) but the sim was forgiving.

My stomach tells me that the DCS sim of carrier landings is more forgiving than sim landings on a normal RWY.

(Of course I wasn’t in game flight mode).

 

As real pilot a like landing challenges, if you like see my other Fw190-D9 spot landing clip here:

 

(sorry, this clip didn't get any cinematic cut)

Edited August 24, 2017 by wernst
addition correction

[Jayhawk]

I have tried this also with success at Kuznetsov class carrier cause I'm having some issues with the ropes of Carl Vinson (the left wheel gets pulled by the 2nd row rope) and maybe it's just me and not a bug - I don't know now. Please check my video at https://youtu.be/az9LwmNKrKA

 

Regards

[Skitter]

Waiting for somebody to make a vertical landing and take off now.