DCS-Su-27 Operator's Manual for A-A Combat

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

Had been working on it for sometime for our cadets & Operational Pilots at ITGC Air Corps. Pilots sometimes, specially the new pilots develop a habit of trying to sneak in the valleys and getting those ET kills. In the long run this might affect their fighting ability when you cant get those kills in and survive the combat in plain areas. See if the manual makes sense to you. ill keep updating whatever declassified stuff i can offer from the squadron's testing.

 

All the best & have fun.

 

Good hunting gentlemen.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tauvffqhwndtwcp/DCS-Su27%20Operator%27s%20Manual..pdf?dl=0

 

Updated 16 Dec 2017

DCS-Su27 Operator's Manual..pdf

Edited December 15, 2017 by =ITGC=Verticle Charlie

[Rudel_chw]

Thanks a lot, looks very concise and well written ... I'm not right now using FC3 but will save and keep it for when I do.

 

 

Best regards

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

Thanks a lot, looks very concise and well written ... I'm not right now using FC3 but will save and keep it for when I do.

 

 

Best regards

 

Thanks man !! Enjoy !!

[Frostie]

Nice job, really well presented and full of a lot of valuable info. :thumbup:

[otaolive]

Thanks! Hope will help me fight the Fortress Mozdok Campaign..

[Stuge]

Good manual overall I like it!

 

That performance chart though... vastly different than I've seen for Su-27 before :) (turn rate increases all the way until reaching maximum G, this is quite different from the older charts where the turn rate "plateaus" over the 600-800 km/h range, like is seen here http://i.imgur.com/Kb7D2Fx.jpg )

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

Nice job, really well presented and full of a lot of valuable info. :thumbup:

 

Thanks a lot frostie !! I am sure you must have already have all the information ;)

Edited December 15, 2017 by =ITGC=Verticle Charlie

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

Thanks! Hope will help me fight the Fortress Mozdok Campaign..

 

Hopefully it will !! if you need any help just contact any ITGC pilot that you see. We will be happy to help you out!!

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

Good manual overall I like it!

 

That performance chart though... vastly different than I've seen for Su-27 before :) (turn rate increases all the way until reaching maximum G, this is quite different from the older charts where the turn rate "plateaus" over the 600-800 km/h range, like is seen here http://i.imgur.com/Kb7D2Fx.jpg )

 

Hey Stuge !! thanks a lot for going through it. Feels good when pilots like you and frostie take out the time to read it. With regard to the chart, it is directly from the DCS manual for 27 and seems consistent with flight performance. Please let me know if you find any difference. We will however, test with your chart as well !! Thanks .

Edited December 15, 2017 by =ITGC=Verticle Charlie

[Stuge]

Hey Stuge !! thanks a lot for going through it. Feels good when pilots like you and frostie take out the time to read it. With regard to the chart, it is directly from the DCS manual for 27 and seems consistent with flight performance. Please let me know if you find any difference. We will however, test with your chart as well !! Thanks .

 

Look at the graph description in the manual: it says "typical turn rate plot of a modern fighter", not specifically Su-27 plot. That graph is not a Su-27 graph.

 

In fact, your manual has another claim that contradicts this graph: "Use corner speed to your advantage. For a Sukhoi it’s somewhere around 540- 650 Km/ Hr. ". The graph would suggest ever increasing turn rate with increasing airspeed until max G is hit, putting the "corner" speed at around 850 km/h for an 8 G turn (which is the most you can sustain without blacking out)

 

But my experience and the Su-27 graphs I've seen tell that both of these claims are false - there is indeed a "plateau" of sorts, which evens out the performance in the 600-800 km/h area meaning there is no "single best speed" to turn at, but instead a fairly constant turn rate across this speed range. This is very different from the F-15 which indeed benefits from riding the "edge of blackout" at corner velocity. Go slower than 600 km/h - your turn rate starts hurting. Go faster than 850 km/h - and your turn suffers again (If you're heavy, the total drag hurts your turn rate. If you're light, you will over-G or your airspeed will increase uncontrollably.)

Edited December 15, 2017 by Stuge

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

Hey Stuge !! you might be correct here. The Corner speed that i have taken account as 540-650 is because it is easier to sustain those speed at moderate to high loading and the turning radius to be as low as possible. There is nearly a 300 m difference in the turning radius at 850 Km/hr. As you said, " Go faster than 850 km/h - and your turn suffers again (If you're heavy, the total drag hurts your turn rate. If you're light, you will over-G or your airspeed will increase uncontrollably.)" Keeping all of the above in mind. I would rather sustain that 600 Km/hr and maintain my short turn radius than be at 800 + and keep on Over G and be practically blind or be at near blackouts. But in any case i do see what you mean, and the manual will be updated after we test it out. And further as you have said there cannot be just a single figure for the Corner speed.A lot of factors have to be taken into account ( Height, radius, Speed, Loading,turn rate etc). Ill try and find the perfect balance between all of them !!

Edited December 16, 2017 by =ITGC=Verticle Charlie

[WildBillKelsoe]

That is a great write. Structured, and to the point. Well done.

 

I think you might also want to check the square loop and write some info about it. The tacview image is blurred. Might also want to write down HUD range key being multiples of seven. Also, might want to write about off boresight capability of AI Su-27s. Also, might want to write about Pugachev cobra and G limiter switches functions.

 

Lastly, takeoff and approach speeds would definitely help in enriching it.

 

Had been working on it for sometime for our cadets & Operational Pilots at ITGC Air Corps. Pilots sometimes, specially the new pilots develop a habit of trying to sneak in the valleys and getting those ET kills. In the long run this might affect their fighting ability when you cant get those kills in and survive the combat in plain areas. See if the manual makes sense to you. ill keep updating whatever declassified stuff i can offer from the squadron's testing.

 

All the best & have fun.

 

Good hunting gentlemen.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tauvffqhwndtwcp/DCS-Su27%20Operator%27s%20Manual..pdf?dl=0

 

Updated 16 Dec 2017

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

That is a great write. Structured, and to the point. Well done.

 

I think you might also want to check the square loop and write some info about it. The tacview image is blurred. Might also want to write down HUD range key being multiples of seven. Also, might want to write about off boresight capability of AI Su-27s. Also, might want to write about Pugachev cobra and G limiter switches functions.

 

Lastly, takeoff and approach speeds would definitely help in enriching it.

 

hey man !! thanks for checking it out !! some of the information has been deleted for making the manual public and is available only to the squadron while some has been censored with black and blurred images. The manual is for a multiplayer environment. At the time i wrote the manual the limiter switch wast available for binding i shall add it now, thanks for pointing it out. Personally, i have never used cobra in combat so that is why i left it out. Ill add your suggestions as soon as possible !! Thanks again !!

[Ironhand]

Hey Stuge !! you might be correct here. The Corner speed that i have taken account as 540-650 is because it is easier to sustain those speed at moderate to high loading and the turning radius to be as low as possible. There is nearly a 300 m difference in the turning radius at 850 Km/hr. As you said, " Go faster than 850 km/h - and your turn suffers again (If you're heavy, the total drag hurts your turn rate. If you're light, you will over-G or your airspeed will increase uncontrollably.)" Keeping all of the above in mind. I would rather sustain that 600 Km/hr and maintain my short turn radius than be at 800 + and keep on Over G and be practically blind or be at near blackouts. But in any case i do see what you mean, and the manual will be updated after we test it out. And further as you have said there cannot be just a single figure for the Corner speed.A lot of factors have to be taken into account ( Height, radius, Speed, Loading,turn rate etc). Ill try and find the perfect balance between all of them !!

I think you'll find that, if you keep your speed up at around 725 to 775 IAS(at lower altitudes at least) you'll have a fairly tight circle and be rating your nose at around 20-23°/second. Then, if you need to, you can load on 8 Gs and zoom to around 28-30°/sec as your speed decays toward 625 IAS. That last, though, is a short-term (instantaneous) rate. You do that only to pull your weapons onto the target. And you only get to do it once nefore you need to easy off and build energy up again.

[Stuge]

I think this conversation is perhaps going too deep for the purpose of a "simple" guide. Suffice to say there are benefits to going slower (radius) and going faster (energy reserve) but this is a deeper BFM topic. Similarly, limiter off maneuvering has its place but is also outside of this topic.. Concerning raw sustained turn rate horizontally (without considering any other factors) i dont see a fundamental difference between 600 kmh and 800 kmh.

[Ironhand]

...Concerning raw sustained turn rate horizontally (without considering any other factors) i dont see a fundamental difference between 600 kmh and 800 kmh.

Roughly the difference between 23° and 17°/sec.

[Stuge]

Roughly the difference between 23° and 17°/sec.

 

Sorcery, i refuse to believe outright! But i'll test when I get home... that would also mean the published graphs are quite wrong..

[Ironhand]

Sorcery, i refuse to believe outright! But i'll test when I get home... that would also mean the published graphs are quite wrong..

Or maybe 22 & 19. :) Could be neasurement error.

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

hey Ironhand !! Drona ( erstwhile 159th Kunz ) who joined our squadron speaks very highly of you. Thank you for taking out the time and reading the manual. At some point every flanker pilots have used your videos and site for learning.

 

As Stuge has said this is a "simple" manual and was prepared for the new recruits in my squadron to teach them the basics about about air to air combat. I, did not know if the community had such a thing so i released it for them as well.

 

However, i have not been able to fly in the last week or two and would be grateful if the results of the testing were made available to us. Also, there seems to be a loss in the thrust in Su-27 in the new Update because of some ambient temp dependency ? (told by somebody else). So some more testing is warranted it seems.

[Ironhand]

...Also, there seems to be a loss in the thrust in Su-27 in the new Update because of some ambient temp dependency ? (told by somebody else). So some more testing is warranted it seems.

Thrust is definitely temperature dependent now. Just make a takeoff roll at full mil power with the temp set to 0°C and 35°C and you'll see the difference.

[Stuge]

Agreed, I havent flown at all since the temperature effect got implemented. You'll have my thoughts/results by new year :)

[Belphe]

Thrust is definitely temperature dependent now. Just make a takeoff roll at full mil power with the temp set to 0°C and 35°C and you'll see the difference.

 

Does this affect Flanker's adversaries as well (e.g. F-15C)?

[ITGCVerticle Charlie]

Does this affect Flanker's adversaries as well (e.g. F-15C)?

 

from what we know ? yes.

[DragonFlySlayer]

Thanx man! Very cool indeed!

 

Man I was looking for something and viola!... "Look what I found here"?!

:thumbup:

 

:smartass:

 

Thanks very much! This is very helpful!

:book:

[DarkFire]

Just came across this manual. Excellent work, really handy reference to brush up on techniques. :thumbup: