Ka-50 autopilot trim helicopter?

[Faman]

I'm trying to fly this helo but it doesn't fly at all! It is already oversensitive with slight corrections to the autopilot with trim, nose waggling up and down. Is the Ka-50 only an autopilot trim helicopter with dangerous corrections? I expect some more joystick action just like Battlefield 4 but then you're likely to crash. Seems there's no pilot at all in this helo, only an autopilot that trims… What about the turning rate of all the aircraft, you almost can't roll and pull back on the stick at all for a sharp turn.

 

 

My Thrustmaster T-Flight joystick responds well and trim is working which isn't the case with my Logitech G940 FF joystick. The latter doesn't seem to be supported by DCS anymore! The trim button just ain't working. It's not centered either with A-10c and only works fine with the Su-25T.

 

 

I enjoyed a training flight with the Ka-50 this morning after turning on MSAA+SSAA to high which I somehow had forgotten, and had beautifull graphics in DCS 2.5! It still has long loading times first time and ocasional stutter and needs to be optimized.

[Cheetah7798]

Hey, Faman

 

The Ka-50 takes a bit of getting used to, since its trim system is a bit more computerized than older birds, like the Mi-8 and UH-1. It may not seem like it at first, but the Ka-50's autopilot and trim system are quite a bit more user friendly than those aforementioned two.

 

some things to keep in mind. The Ka-50 is obviously supposed to use pitch and bank autopilot 24/7, like other helicopters. the yaw AP is more for route following, target alignment and flying in straight lines without a care in the would. the altitude hold is also quite useful in a similar fashion.

 

Though, unlike other helis, with the Ka-50, you are supposed to hold the trim button for the duration of a maneuver, then release it when in stable flight again.

 

for instance, you are flying at 250km/h and want to slow to a hover. So, you hold in the trim button, tilt back, reduce collective, bring it to a stop, level it out, then and only then, you release the trim button.

 

Helicopters are a hell of a lot more complex in terms of keeping stable than your conventional fixed wing aircraft. and games like battlefield really do not do them any justice with the ridiculously simplified flight modeling.

 

My advice? lots of practice and patience. it may seem like the helicopter is ordering you around and sucking the fun out of everything at first, but in due course there will be some mutual relation within which you can co-exist.

[electricaltill]

It sounds like you may have fallen victim to the 'inverted' AP channel lights that some have been seeing since 2.5 (depending what cockpit you're using).

 

I don't have the sim to hand so someone correct me, but in some graphics configurations the channels appear to be engaged when they're actually off, and without them you would certainly get the behaviour you mention. I find the Shark very difficult to keep stable without any AP channels on.

[Cheetah7798]

True, as current I am flying with those inverted lights, though I would argue that they just don't turn on at all. There is a minor graphical change between on and off, but It's hard to call either of them a light. In any event, it is far from impossible to adjust to.

[thestardawg]

sounds like your ap was off like mine. i was going crazy.

 

but if pitch, bank, and heading are on it's pretty legit.

 

also learn about auto director. it basically takes the training wheels off. useful for getting into a hot area. it's kind of like holding in the trim button without holding it in.

[Yurgon]

Yeah, the Ka-50 takes a bit getting used to.

 

There are many excellent tutorials available here in the forum and on YouTube.

 

Understanding how the trim works, and how the stability augmentation works in relation to trim, is key to taming this beast.

 

However, once you understand how to make all these systems work for you, the helicopter can actually fly itself, which is a tremendously cool thing to lift some of the workload off the pilot's shoulders. It's also necessary for a single seat attack helo - there's a reason all other attack choppers are always two-seaters. ;)

 

Flying with all stability augmentation channels off is good training for emergencies. With these systems on, the Ka-50 is actually the easiest to fly chopper in DCS IMHO.

 

As far as maneuverability goes, I don't think Frazer found anything wrong with it. :music_whistling:

 

[Faman]

Is it KAmikaze-50 or KA-50 KRASH? I don't care about the autopilot but it just flies lousy. I do believe that the system works if the nose is pointing more straight: now I have waggly nose that goes up and down with very unsure stick movement, and then you constantly have to correct the autopilot as it is not valid anymore after a correction.

Then you easilly exceed the 300 barrier and your rotor breaks..

[Holton181]

Is it KAmikaze-50 or KA-50 KRASH? I don't care about the autopilot but it just flies lousy. I do believe that the system works if the nose is pointing more straight: now I have waggly nose that goes up and down with very unsure stick movement, and then you constantly have to correct the autopilot as it is not valid anymore after a correction.

Then you easilly exceed the 300 barrier and your rotor breaks..

Do you have the altitude hold on? Snd if do, is it set to follow height above ground or barometric altitude? On your description it does sound you do have altitude hold and height above ground enabled.

Also make sure the other AP channels are on (altitude hold is the least necessary one). The lights on the buttons are reversed, it looks like they are off when they are actually on. It's a bug. But the AP do work when you have learned it.

[Yurgon]

Is it KAmikaze-50 or KA-50 KRASH? I don't care about the autopilot but it just flies lousy. [...]

 

Make sure there are no axis-conflicts or double-axis assignments.

 

Double check "Force Feedback" is not checked in Options if you don't have a Force Feedback stick, or that it is checked if you do.

 

There are only about half a gazillion trouble shooting posts and guidelines out there, along with amazing in-depth tutorials on how to get started with the Ka-50, the most fundamental being the documentation that comes with the Ka-50. Find and follow these.

 

If all else fails, please post a track of a short flight of yours that demonstrates the problems you are having.

 

A video could also work, but a track would be better.

[Tuesday]

I was having this issue the other day; neither my VKB Gladiator nor my MS Sidewinder FFB was able to trim properly (read: at all) as it would just centre immediately and send me nose into the sky and rear-end first into the ground.

 

 

Are you perhaps using one of the preset instant action missions when this happens? I think they might be bugged; as nothing was working for me using the "Take off from Beslan" instant action mission or cold start; but I have not been having any issues with the centering in user-made missions online or offline.

 

 

Don't have time to read the replies so only saw the OP, apologies if this was already said - but double check that the axes are swapped by checking the box in FF Tune on the adjust controls page.

[thrustvector]

the shark sometimes feels like that to new pilots, its normal.

after I been flying the mi8 for a while I come back to the 50 and it feels like a nippy little race car, when you get used to it more by putting in the hours, you will find she is the easiest copter to fly.

yes the ap channels are a pain, but at the moment its when they are dark they are on, try all on but the b channel, then you will have the smoothest ride. fly her straight then hit the trim and let go quickly for the normal trim, little and often works best.

there is another option, forget whats its called at the moment, where you can trim your heading, but it wont take hold till the stick re centres by you, I used to find this one a bit easier till I got used to her.

the best way to practise I found was, when your ready to fly, push the stick forward about an inch then trim before take-off, when you get this right she will just come up in a hover, or near hover, rise up nose down a bit and head for the town, then practise going round the buildings and down the streets, you will soon be chucking it around like a madman, have fun and don't get stressed, your doing nothing wrong its just a learning curve, but if you get stuck, well ask any of us for help :)

[M1Combat]

"fly her straight then hit the trim and let go quickly for the normal trim, little and often works best."

 

 

No :).

 

 

Press the trim, fly her straight, release the trim.

 

 

"push the stick forward about an inch then trim before take-off"

 

 

It works better if you hold the trim first, then increase power until the front wheel starts coming up, push the stick forwards while still increasing power to keep the front wheel on the ground. As soon as she starts rolling forwards, release trim and full power to take off.

 

 

Moral of the story...

 

 

Hold the trim when flying the aircraft. When she's doing what you want... Let go of the trim and the controls.

[Holton181]

It's all about taste.

I used to be a "hold trim" guy with the default trim method for a long time, you can even find threads with me giving advice about it. Now, after increasing cyclic friction just enough to hold it in position where I leave it (I have full length cyclic with no centering functionality and variable friction), and switched to the "without spring and FFB" trim method, I surprised myself to also switch to frequent clicking almost at every attitude change (start clicking before starting to change attitude and stop after stopping attitude change). No active decision, just happened. And it works great!

Bottom line, find what suites you, and don't be afraid to change.

[derbynew]

Make sure you set the joystick type e.g spring or no spring in settings.

 

You need to hold trim in when you change direction or pitch.

 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Yurgon]

Bottom line, find what suites you, and don't be afraid to change.

 

Great advice! :thumbup:

 

One of my most devastating discussions in this forum was about trim, and how people should do it. I *very* strongly believe that the answer is "it depends", as well as "use whatever method works best for *you*".

 

Of course there's lots to learn from other players and from other methods, and it's certainly a good thing to understand the different methods and how they affect the aircraft.

 

Personally, I found that I trim the Ka-50 Western style (hold trim) and the UH-1 Russian style (repeated trim clicks) and for some strange reason that works pretty well for me. ;)

[Faman]

I've found the solution for my problem, it was indeed a matter of turning the force feedback off. I am using the Thrustmaster T-Flight instead of the Logitech G940 FF I have because the latter is not supported anymore in DCS(!): the trim wasn't working and the stick is not centered for many planes. The Thrustmaster has sensitive control for the Ka-50 and you must use soft inputs.

And I can fly the Ka-50 now without a crash or kamikaze!

 

I hope ED updates the support for my Logitech G940 because it's such a shame it is not fully supported.

[M1Combat]

It's all about taste.

I used to be a "hold trim" guy with the default trim method for a long time, you can even find threads with me giving advice about it. Now, after increasing cyclic friction just enough to hold it in position where I leave it (I have full length cyclic with no centering functionality and variable friction), and switched to the "without spring and FFB" trim method, I surprised myself to also switch to frequent clicking almost at every attitude change (start clicking before starting to change attitude and stop after stopping attitude change). No active decision, just happened. And it works great!

Bottom line, find what suites you, and don't be afraid to change.

 

 

I would propose that your proposal is indeed NOT about "taste" but about setting the options to correctly reflect your controller style and then also using the trim method that works the best for that controller style ;)...

 

 

A point to ponder...

 

 

When you're trimmed the AP channels will resist your inputs. When you press trim the AP channels immediately release their smallish level of resistance to your input. This causes the rotor blades to very quickly change their orientation to more closely reflect your cyclic position. This is "not good" when approaching "the speed limit". You can test this for yourself... pull the cyclic a small amount and let the aircraft settle into the equilibrium demanded by your input, then press the button. The airframe will jump a bit. That's not good.

 

 

There are a few things that I've learned that will greatly increase the performance that one can extract from the aircraft without touching the tips...

 

 

1. Turn off the altitude hold channel in general. Sure if you're just AP flying from one waypoint to another or if you're low and slow and tying to get the AP to fly NOE for you at a low speed on RALT then feel free to use it... but in general keep it off.

 

 

2. Hold the trim button when you're "flying". ESPECIALLY anywhere near the edges of the envelope that bring the blade tips close together. There's a scientifically testable REASON to do this. It's not about what "feels best" to you or what you're used to. It's about having the maximum capability of the airframe at your fingertips at all times. If you insist that you don't want to hold the trim button then you can use the flight director mode as far as I know to achieve a similar smooth flight but I don't do it that way so I don't know what the benefits and drawbacks are.

 

 

 

3. Pay attention to your blade pitch. You need to learn this one for yourself because you need to learn how air speed is related to safe blade pitch settings. You can get to WELL over 400 if you're paying attention to your blade pitch and how much you can ask for at what speed.

[thrustvector]

wow, you seem to criticise everyone else's remarks and help, then add your own. well done

[Holton181]

@Faman

Good to hear you got it sorted! And sorry to hijack your thread with yet another triming discussion.

 

@M1Combat

Well, if you find a combination of trim method and a routine with the button that suits you and your controller, I would definitely say it's a matter taste. Not about how RL Ka-50 pilots do it, nor about what others on the forum tells you to do. I find the discussion more like the hen and the egg, just a matter from what angle you look.

Regarding your tests I would agree with you as long as controller deflections are relatively medium to big (still tiny though), but that is not how to do it, from my experience. With small (i.e. itsy bitsy tiny!) deflections between trim clicks the imput lagg introduced by the mechanics and hydraulics smoth out the "jump" making it nonexistent. I click about 1-4 times per second depending on how fast I move my controller, generally I'm around 2-3 clicks/s.

I can fly quite aerobaticaly with the clicking technique, but as I also mentioned I don't always use that technique. For instance, taking evasive actions when having incoming projectiles at me I still press and hold.

[M1Combat]

@Thrustvector

 

Odd... I don't recall criticizing anyone. I was just trying to state what I understand about the subject and also give people the information I have that seems to back up my position. I even added a smiley face :). It's all good though :)... if you feel like I was attacking you I apologize.

 

 

 

@Holton181

I've still not heard anyone come up with a practical advantage to the click method, but I have certainly found a disadvantage. I just don't see why the click method even exists. Maybe it's a practicality issue from the standpoint of button placement? I have my left thumb button mapped to it. The only other things I use that thumb for is either of my TDC slews (one hat and one analog stick, but both reachable with the left thumb) or the other hat that controls weapon selection. Because of this I very rarely need to hold trim while attempting to manipulate any other control with that thumb...

[Holton181]

...

Well, for me it just happened, started using it without actively deciding to when changing trim method in settings. And it works much better now (have used the hold method since BS1 till just recently), finally it feels quite relaxed, never felt so relaxed before. I have the trim at the most relaxed position for my right thumb.

I also got a better understanding how it is handled when route/track following is activated. Overall a nicer experience. Pro and cons? I don't care, never had any problems, no blade collisions even at overspending.

But to you the hold method with default in settings work the best.

[M1Combat]

The main advantage of "clicking" is most apparent when using realistic controls, as you hold down the trim button all force on the stick is removed leading to a percieved massive increase in control sensitivity. This makes it very easy to overcontrol the aircraft and is the reason why clicking is the preferred real life method.

 

 

Well that makes sense...

[AlphaOneSix]

clicking is the preferred real life method.

 

I think this really depends on the maneuver being performed. For example, in my experience, if I push against the cyclic, and therefore against the spring tension, when I "click" the trimmer, the stick always jumps slightly as that spring tension is released immediately. So if I am just moving the cyclic a tiny amount, then yes, I could see that "clicking" is the preferred method. But (and again this is just my personal experience) when moving the cyclic more than maybe an inch or two, I need to press and hold the trimmer or else I'll get a big control jump when I finally do press it. Also, in a hover, I find that I like having that sensitivity, so while hovering I'll typically just hold the trimmer down until I get it almost perfect then release and make small adjustments against the springs.

[AlphaOneSix]

This is for the Mi8 right? My comment is only really relevant for the Ka50.

 

Fair enough. My personal flying experience is with the Mi-8 (and about 3 hours front seat in an AH-64A) but the pilots I've flown with do the same thing and so really my comment is valid for Mi-8, AS332, B412, and AH-64A. I understand that my comment may not be as valid for different aircraft.

[Rogue Trooper]

I reckon the standard operating envelope of the chopper requires too large a throw of the virtual/real cyclic. This excessive throw causes problems when trimming for a certain flight regime because of the large distance required to re zero our real cyclic within a millisecond.

 

The rest of the cyclic movement is for fast and hard aerobatic or emergency manoeuvres.

like the video we always see posted of the KA-50 pit with external views flying.... aerobatics.

 

Give it to the new members of ED (belsimtek), these guys know how to trim a bird.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Rogue Trooper