If enemy has AWACS is being stealthy pointless?

[bodecker]

So I've been running the Su-27 Campaign, and had a question. is it possible to avoid Awacs Radar? I'm trying to go under F16s/F15s and flank but they seem to know where I am all the time even though my radar & ecm are off. If they have Awacs support should I just run radar, blast ecm and split them up?

[Kang]

The question is: does the AWACS pick you up? Does your RWR light up? If it 'can see' you, yea, there goes your stealthy approach. Quite ironic considering how complete rubbish the AWACS sometimes is at communicating anything to a human player.

[Mule]

So I've been running the Su-27 Campaign, and had a question. is it possible to avoid Awacs Radar? I'm trying to go under F16s/F15s and flank but they seem to know where I am all the time even though my radar & ecm are off. If they have Awacs support should I just run radar, blast ecm and split them up?

 

Good question.

 

I don't know the mechanics of the AWACS within the simulation.

 

Can you expand a bit on your approach? A good tool to use after you have flown your mission is a fantastic program called Tacview. Which is fully supported by DCS. (apologies if you know all about it) this will show you a much more detailed view of the situation and much more information to help you analyse your missions after you have finished them etc.

[corvinus]

Afaik the radar detection algorithm for search radars is pretty basic, it uses a maximum detection range icw terrain masking. The maximum detection range is usually several hundreds of kilometers for AEW (airborne early warning). Also it is flying high, so you really need to use valleys and mountains to hide behind.

[Exorcet]

AWACS is not all seeing, but if it catches the slightest glimpse of you, all the enemies on its side know where you are.

 

 

You can sort of cheat but making yourself Invisible in advanced options. Do something like turn it on by default and turn it off if you go a certain altitude above ground.

[Tiramisu]

Is there a way in the mission editor to tell a certain AI group to attack an airplane, that has been detected by the AWAC in some region? I am very interested in how to do it.

[javelina1]

Correct.

 

You can also use this to your advantage. If you pop up and give them a sniff at some location, they'll loose the hounds to that spot. Then you can back off and sneak around via a different route or set up a "MiG trap" where they thought it was gonna be 2v1 but really it's a 2v4.

 

There's a million ways to skin this cat.

 

 

^^^ This! :thumbup:

[bodecker]

Thanks for the replies.

 

 

 

The question is: does the AWACS pick you up? Does your RWR light up? If it 'can see' you, yea, there goes your stealthy approach. Quite ironic considering how complete rubbish the AWACS sometimes is at communicating anything to a human player.

 

 

 

Well yeah, it can see me, and it has already seen me for a while. I mean following the mission waypoints you're usually at a high altitude which makes you open to scan, but then I go low once my awacs spots the enemy. As for the Awacs communication, I don't know. I think it works. its kind of simple but it gives the info you need.

 

 

Good question.

 

I don't know the mechanics of the AWACS within the simulation.

 

Can you expand a bit on your approach? A good tool to use after you have flown your mission is a fantastic program called Tacview. Which is fully supported by DCS. (apologies if you know all about it) this will show you a much more detailed view of the situation and much more information to help you analyse your missions after you have finished them etc.

 

 

Yeah I downloaded it, is there a way to check radar visibility within it? I'll have to play around and see.

 

 

My approach is usually follow the way points to their proper heights, and dive into the mountains when my AWACS spots the enemy fighters, but even among the mountains they were still turning towards me. Maybe its just because its the single player AI and it can see everything lol.

 

 

Afaik the radar detection algorithm for search radars is pretty basic, it uses a maximum detection range icw terrain masking. The maximum detection range is usually several hundreds of kilometers for AEW (airborne early warning). Also it is flying high, so you really need to use valleys and mountains to hide behind.

 

that's what I've tried doing. the other problem here is if that I go too low, my wingman usually ends up crashing with an "ejecting" radio message lol

 

 

AWACS is not all seeing, but if it catches the slightest glimpse of you, all the enemies on its side know where you are.

 

 

You can sort of cheat but making yourself Invisible in advanced options. Do something like turn it on by default and turn it off if you go a certain altitude above ground.

 

okay, what about turning the RWR off? will that affect my visibility at all? And I'm not looking to cheat lol. takes the fun & challenge out of it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll use the flashlight analogy. You can see someone on a pitch black night with a lit flashlight from a distance. That doesn't mean that they can see you, right?

.

 

Sorry I don't think I fully understand, is the AWACS holding the flashlight, or am I the one with the flashlight?

 

 

As for staying low, I can only go so low before my wingman crashes into the hills lol

 

Correct.

 

You can also use this to your advantage. If you pop up and give them a sniff at some location, they'll loose the hounds to that spot. Then you can back off and sneak around via a different route or set up a "MiG trap" where they thought it was gonna be 2v1 but really it's a 2v4.

 

There's a million ways to skin this cat.

 

But the only way to sneak around is through the mountains correct? I can't just be low on flat ground, and what if the mountainous terrain ends and I have to pop up and over, that will blow my cover right?

[Kang]

okay, what about turning the RWR off? will that affect my visibility at all? And I'm not looking to cheat lol. takes the fun & challenge out of it.

 

No, the RWR is a purely passive system.

[mahuja]

3 - You are confident you're in a head on engagement without surprises and want your BVR missiles to reach a bit further.

 

4 - You want to keep some sa-10 tracking radar(s) busy for as long as possible (max range, max missile flight time) while your friends pop up and attack something.

 

Imagination ;)

 

 

@op: Try to tell him to fly in a trail formation. That should leave him flying through roughly the same place you are, rather than try fly off to the side where terrain may be higher.

 

 

Also, AWACS seem to lose you when you're beaming them while near terrain.

(AWACS says clean even as I have a radar lock from another angle...)

If you have two radars looking for you from different directions though, you can't beam them both.

[Exorcet]

okay, what about turning the RWR off? will that affect my visibility at all? And I'm not looking to cheat lol. takes the fun & challenge out of it.

The RWR is passive, it should never be off. It gives off no emissions to detect.

 

 

My comment on "cheating" was not to make it easier per se, but sort of a hack to get proper behavior in case AWACS is a little too good at managing contacts that it detects.

[bodecker]

Thanks for the tips guys. I think I've kind of figured it out. Yeah even with wingman on trail, he still sometimes rises, because my route is too edgy, and also with the Awacs at 27000 ASL, it comes down to luck. if u show up for a second on radar the AI will intercept, or they have maphacks.

[Bad_Karma-701]

AWACS is not all seeing, but if it catches the slightest glimpse of you, all the enemies on its side know where you are.

 

 

You can sort of cheat but making yourself Invisible in advanced options. Do something like turn it on by default and turn it off if you go a certain altitude above ground.

 

Id do this set the hard deck at 500 ft AGL. if you fly above it they can see you

 

but....I'm not gonna sit here and blow sunshine up your a**, Lieutenant. A good pilot is compelled to evaluate what's happened, so he can apply what he's learned. Up there, we gotta push it. That's our job. It's your option, Lieutenant. All yours.

 

Just remember Boys...There's two "O"s in Goose.

[Drag80]

If you fly in open terrain, no matter how low you go, the Awacs will pick you up. However, If you mask your self with mountains and stay in valleys, it wont pick you up.

 

But at that altitude you have to be very caareful regarding your throttle. Fuel consumption is very high at lower altitudes. So the key is to stay in valleys at low speed and throttle up only when you get into combat.

[David OC]

You can sneak up, the AI even turned back here to their heading after coming for me at the start, when AWACS could see me. Not until AWACS could see me again did they come back after me.

 

This was on the highest skill set, the guy's set to follow the AWACS did nothing except get out of the way lol.

 

and I made it all the way back to base.:D Not

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by David OC

[bodecker]

You can sneak up, the AI even turned back here to their heading after coming for me at the start, when AWACS could see me. Not until AWACS could see me again did they come back after me.

 

This was on the highest skill set, the guy's set to follow the AWACS did nothing except get out of the way lol.

 

and I made it all the way back to base.:D Not

 

 

 

 

 

Nice! that really helped. You know it would be awesome if Tacview had some sort of fog of war setting where you can see if you have been detected or not. Also does "beaming" mean the awacs was targeting you?

[David OC]

Nice! that really helped. You know it would be awesome if Tacview had some sort of fog of war setting where you can see if you have been detected or not. Also does "beaming" mean the awacs was targeting you?

 

No, beaming means perpendicular (Side on around 90 degrees) to the "Aircraft"

 

There is a great guide here on Mud spike if you want to know more about that. Get the free version of Tacview, it's really cool to see how you get shot down.:cry:

 

In the video it looks to me when I get a dashed line is when the AWACS/Fighters cannot see me. I think that line is (LOS) line of sight.

 

You see them turn back at around the 0.22 second mark. This is all subject to change;), they might at some point make the AI a little smarter and come looking in the area I was headed.

[MBot]

You can also use this to your advantage. If you pop up and give them a sniff at some location, they'll loose the hounds to that spot. Then you can back off and sneak around via a different route or set up a "MiG trap" where they thought it was gonna be 2v1 but really it's a 2v4.

 

Not in regards to AI. Once the AI has detected a target via AWACS/EWR and engages, it is connected to that target until it is destroyed or leaves the engagement parameters defined in the Mission Editor. It is not possible to hide again at this point.

[Haukka81]

Not in regards to AI. Once the AI has detected a target via AWACS/EWR and engages, it is connected to that target until it is destroyed or leaves the engagement parameters defined in the Mission Editor. It is not possible to hide again at this point.

 

Yes, this is true.

 

 

And really weird thing to have in wanna be realistic combat sim :doh:

[David OC]

Yes, this is true.

 

 

And really weird thing to have in wanna be realistic combat sim :doh:

 

 

Not true, watch my video above.

 

 

They come for me at the start when AWACS or they can see me, then return to their set course. Watch between 0.20 and 0.30.

 

 

Edit:

 

Well I tried this again and they stayed right on me the whole time when hidden behind the hill...? So I don't know now, you can see them turn away in that vid tho.

Edited November 7, 2018 by David OC

[MBot]

Not true, watch my video above.

 

 

They come for me at the start when AWACS or they can see me, then return to their set course. Watch between 0.20 and 0.30.

 

 

Edit:

 

Well I tried this again and they stayed right on me the whole time when hidden behind the hill...? So I don't know now, you can see them turn away in that vid tho.

 

I don't see them turning, I see them climbing, which is part of their engagement behaviour.

[Eviscerador]

In my experience with AI both in single player or MP, once they get a lock on you (you are detected via any ground or airborne radar) they will engage you even under your own SAM umbrella.

 

I mean, I remember playing in one of the popular PvE servers and the enemy bandits were trying to shot me down even while I was landing at the base with the friendly Patriot battery launching missiles at them like crazy.

 

But I can also tell you that you can use the Causasus valleys in the middle section of the map to just fly undetected by the Awacs. It is good in PvP servers where people use AWACS calls to locate you. Sometimes they get a clean picture, even if you are close, just because you are sneaky.

 

Or you can fly cold war era planes. In my experience both the 21 and the F5 have ridiculously low range detection, sometimes poping up at 15 miles or less from me. Not fun when you try a low altitude interdiction...

[Bad_Karma-701]

Not in regards to AI. Once the AI has detected a target via AWACS/EWR and engages, it is connected to that target until it is destroyed or leaves the engagement parameters defined in the Mission Editor. It is not possible to hide again at this point.

 

So hmm good to know, is this a setting we can adjust. I dont know exactly how or what parameter to set to make it more realistic Like Say if Awacs loses picture dissengage if more the 20km out.

 

Or Is this just something that ED will have to adjust later one at some point and we are just stuck with this behavior..??

[Wizard1393]

You can set the "engage radius" option on AI groups on certain main tasks. But there's no setting that is dynamic like what you ask for. Once AWACS has seen you and you are within engage radius, they will engage you. And they will continue to "magically" find you even if you dive behind mountains at this point.

[Tiramisu]

And they will continue to "magically" find you even if you dive behind mountains at this point.

 

I believe a few times my own radar lock in the Hornet could magically see through a mountain after locking up a helicopter. So maybe this is a general bug in the game.

 

You can set the "engage radius" option on AI groups on certain main tasks. But there's no setting that is dynamic like what you ask for.

 

Maybe it is possible to set this dynamic behaviour in MOOSE. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=138043