Next F-14 video by MagzTV

[mattgn]

Ahh okay. Got it. So the control column stiffens up the higher the G loading. Actually this opens up very interesting potential solutions to force feedback implementation for the module too, and that is something that I would very much like to see implemented in Heatblur's F14.

 

So now the question remains how much force was required to pull back on the stick for any given G in the real plane.

 

To be honest, I think you'd need some substantial framework onto which you could fix your full feedback control stick. It'd be awesome to have that depth of realism. Just not practical I don't think.

It's not like having a MS FF2.

And yes, I did work on fast jets just before anyone guns me down for talking ship.

[Deano87]

The reason the vast majority of A-4 Skyhawk pilots in the RNZAF fathered girls - that depleted uranium bob-weight sitting between your legs! :huh:

 

Apparently prospective girl-swimmers are stronger and more resilient to radiation than boy-swimmers.

 

Wow.. Is that true? :surprise:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

DU isn't particularly hazardous in a solid lump like that.

[Birko]

Could data known on the joysticks on specific aircraft be used to make a maximum G limit for them in DCS?

 

Say an average fighter pilot has arm strength to pull a stick with 'x' newtons, and at 'y' G the force of the stick in the opposite direction to pilot input becomes 'x' newtons, then a DCS players' inputs would be limited at 'y' G and wouldn't be able to exceed 'y' G's.

 

Perhaps the pilots' strength over time in a manoeuvre decreasing could be simulated, decreasing the 'y' G limit.

 

Some sort of virtual force feedback, although hopefully implemented in a way more realistic than I could possible describe.

 

Realms of fantasy? :joystick:

[OnlyforDCS]

To be honest, I think you'd need some substantial framework onto which you could fix your full feedback control stick. It'd be awesome to have that depth of realism. Just not practical I don't think.

It's not like having a MS FF2.

And yes, I did work on fast jets just before anyone guns me down for talking ship.

 

Well, I wasn't talking about a FULL feedback control stick. Just any appreciable stiffening with an onset of g (within the limits of what force feedback joysticks can do) would be really, really great to have. It won't be exactly like the real thing, but it will go a long way to providing excellent feedback that a spring loaded joystick just can't reproduce. Anyone who's tried FFB can attest to this with the other DCS modules that do support it.

[RustBelt]

DU isn't particularly hazardous in a solid lump like that.

 

Seriously, my old Uranium glass serving platter emits more radiation than a depleted uranium lump does.

[RustBelt]

Well, I wasn't talking about a FULL feedback control stick. Just any appreciable stiffening with an onset of g (within the limits of what force feedback joysticks can do) would be really, really great to have. It won't be exactly like the real thing, but it will go a long way to providing excellent feedback that a spring loaded joystick just can't reproduce. Anyone who's tried FFB can attest to this with the other DCS modules that do support it.

 

With a Hydraulic assisted flight control system you're basically taking about full Force Feedback since basically that's what a Feel system does in effect, which is fine other than the bullshit microsoft patent hoarding.

 

I have a modded Sidewinder FFB2 and am going to be building a yoke system out of Sidewinder FFB2 guts. It's really night and day how easy the plane is to fly and stay out of buffet even with low power FFB implementation because you can still feel something.

 

I know it's not for everyone, but you want FFB you unfortunately have to build your own because nobody is willing to pay the extortionist licensing fee for multi axis FFB (wheels get to loophole since they are only one FFB axis so no surprise there's plenty of them.)

 

The other thing that really keeps real planes at lower G loads is of course the fact that G load HURTS!!! I've done 2G in a 172 and it was NOT something I felt like doing for more than 5 seconds. And you have to WORK to get to 2G, your whole body tells you that you're loading the airframe, you don't just effortlessly pull until the screen goes black or you buffet yourself into the ground. Sadly that can't be simulated.

[VampireNZ]

DU isn't particularly hazardous in a solid lump like that.

 

Indeed - and I am totally convinced it is complete random chance that 99% of all A-4 Pilots at 75 Sqn when I was at Ohakea for 10 years all had girls....totally safe.

 

I feel quite privileged to have been witness to such a statistical anomaly. :thumbup:

Edited January 9, 2019 by VampireNZ

[OnlyforDCS]

I know it's not for everyone, but you want FFB you unfortunately have to build your own because nobody is willing to pay the extortionist licensing fee for multi axis FFB (wheels get to loophole since they are only one FFB axis so no surprise there's plenty of them.)

 

 

This is all cool and everything but Im not talking about building a FFB system from the ground up. Im talking about Heatblur simulating an approximation of the real system in the F14, which could then be used to support existing force feedback sticks (like the FFB2).

Obviously not in a 1 to 1 ratio.

 

Deano87 brought up a great point. Is Heatblur's F14 module simulating the system at all is the question, since the pilot can effortlessly pull enough g's to overstress the airframe and damage it (like we see in MagzTV's video)?

[RustBelt]

For all we know they have. There has been nothing said about FFB implementation. Did I miss magz saying he was using FFB?

[Psybain]

Indeed - and I am totally convinced it is complete random chance that 99% of all A-4 Pilots at 75 Sqn when I was at Ohakea for 10 years all had girls....totally safe.

 

I feel quite privileged to have been witness to such a statistical anomaly.

It's not that abnormal, my first unit was MACS-2 and I think most of the radar guys had girls. The longer you were in the unit basically increased the chances of having girls, or so went the rumor. I've heard similar things about satcom guys at comm squadrons and comm bns.

 

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[Flamin_Squirrel]

Indeed - and I am totally convinced it is complete random chance that 99% of all A-4 Pilots at 75 Sqn when I was at Ohakea for 10 years all had girls....totally safe.

 

I feel quite privileged to have been witness to such a statistical anomaly. :thumbup:

 

Pay attention. I didn't say it was totally safe, I said it isn't particularly hazardous in a solid lump.

 

Your example isn't exactly a strong counter-point to the contrary either.

[Victory205]

I had all boys, conceived when I was flying a few hundred hoirse per year. Also know another Tomcat driver that had four boys. He quipped that he would volunteer his services to the wives of pilots who wanted the same.

 

My best friend throughout my career had two girls. My roomie on two cruises and Topgun RIO had two girls and two boys. I will say, there did seem to be a prevalence of girls, but I thought it was God paying back male pilots for the way they treated girls on liberty.

[OnlyforDCS]

I had all boys, conceived when I was flying a few hundred hoirse per year. Also know another Tomcat driver that had four boys. He quipped that he would volunteer his services to the wives of pilots who wanted the same.

 

My best friend throughout my career had two girls. My roomie on two cruises and Topgun RIO had two girls and two boys. I will say, there did seem to be a prevalence of girls, but I thought it was God paying back male pilots for the way they treated girls on liberty.

 

Heya there Victory, did you watch MagzTV's video? What do you think about the part where he overstressed the airframe and broke his engines? Would that be possible to do (if very undesireable) in the real Tomcat?

[Victory205]

Heya there Victory, did you watch MagzTV's video? What do you think about the part where he overstressed the airframe and broke his engines? Would that be possible to do (if very undesireable) in the real Tomcat?

 

Didn’t watch the video, but the the B and D had engine mount issues that the A didn’t. Would break the engines, but you could break the mounts. No problems with the A.

 

Structurally, twisting of the airframe under rolling G was perhaps the biggest threat. Grumman came up with an external brace called “The Staple” to reduce cracking. The G limit was artificially low, and the airplanes were over stressed often.

[OnlyforDCS]

Didn’t watch the video, but the the B and D had engine mount issues that the A didn’t. Would break the engines, but you could break the mounts. No problems with the A.

 

Structurally, twisting of the airframe under rolling G was perhaps the biggest threat. Grumman came up with an external brace called “The Staple” to reduce cracking. The G limit was artificially low, and the airplanes were over stressed often.

 

The action starts from about 21:13 into the video if you wan't to take a look, but basically it goes down like this:

 

Magz does an instantaneous 21 g turn and completely wrecks his plane, though it's still kind of flyable. The issue is not with the damage modeling, which seems to be great, but whether the FCS

would allow the pilot to pull so many g's and effectively break his plane and even kill himself or if the bob-weights system in place would simply provide too much counterforce on the stick to do that?

Edited January 10, 2019 by OnlyforDCS

[Victory205]

The action starts from about 21:13 into the video if you wan't to take a look, but basically it goes down like this:

 

Magz does an instantaneous 21 g turn and completely wrecks his plane, though it's still kind of flyable. The issue is not with the damage modeling, which seems to be great, but whether the FCS

would allow the pilot to pull so many g's and effectively break his plane and even kill himself or if the bob-weights system in place would simply provide too much counterforce on the stick to do that?

 

Pointless discussion.

[jhanna1701]

FWIW, I was at Farmingdale Republic Airport back in Oct of 2006 when the actual last flight of a US Navy Tomcat took place. In talking to the pilot afterwards, he said that they "broke" the jet on the high g turn he pulled just prior to landing.

[OnlyforDCS]

Pointless discussion.

 

I take it you mean that you would never attempt to pull so many g's ever so it's kind of a moot point?

Edited January 10, 2019 by OnlyforDCS

[BlackLion213]

I take it you mean that you would never attempt to pull so many g's ever so it's kind of a moot point?

 

I think Victory205’s point is that no pilot will risk their life, their RIO’s life, the aircraft, or their career by attempting to pull the stick into their lap at Mach 1.2+. It is simply a waste of everything involved.

 

Also, stick forces as the G’s built up would reach 100-200 lbs. Not an easy pull for someone and there is at least some risk of the control stick failing/breaking. Which has been reported once in the Tomcat while attempting to over power a malfunctioning pitch SAS.

 

So not at all an accurate representation of real life possibilities, but the lift and energy of the jet would allow a transient like that. Who knows about the rest.

 

-Nick

[Psybain]

I think Victory205’s point is that no pilot will risk their life, their RIO’s life, the aircraft, or their career by attempting to pull the stick into their lap at Mach 1.2+. It is simply a waste of everything involved.

 

 

 

Also, stick forces as the G’s built up would reach 100-200 lbs. Not an easy pull for someone and there is at least some risk of the control stick failing/breaking. Which has been reported once in the Tomcat while attempting to over power a malfunctioning pitch SAS.

 

 

 

So not at all an accurate representation of real life possibilities, but the lift and energy of the jet would allow a transient like that. Who knows about the rest.

 

 

 

-Nick

You never know, Mav did a lot of weird shit while he mourned Goose ;)

 

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[RustBelt]

I think Victory205’s point is that no pilot will risk their life, their RIO’s life, the aircraft, or their career by attempting to pull the stick into their lap at Mach 1.2+. It is simply a waste of everything involved.

 

Also, stick forces as the G’s built up would reach 100-200 lbs. Not an easy pull for someone and there is at least some risk of the control stick failing/breaking. Which has been reported once in the Tomcat while attempting to over power a malfunctioning pitch SAS.

 

So not at all an accurate representation of real life possibilities, but the lift and energy of the jet would allow a transient like that. Who knows about the rest.

 

-Nick

 

Not to mention that in the real plane the Elevons might just fold in half if they were forced to move like that, or the control linkage would buckle. The Hydraulics in the real plane may not even be able to do that without blowing out seals. So even if a pilot COULD move the stick that fast, the Elevons might not actually even be able to move like that. Or the whole empennage rips itself off at 16G before you ever get a chance to hit 21G.

 

In the end it's still just a PC flight simulator, not a 100% part accurate CAD stress model of all couple THOUSAND individual airframe components and innumerable bolts rivets and welds.

[FZG_Immel]

13.49- is it normal to have slats down in this config ?

[Repth]

13.49- is it normal to have slats down in this config ?

 

It is when you break the jet :) (at least by Heatblur's WIP damage model).

 

The reason I know? He mentioned it in the comments section of the video. "Knackered" I believe was the term he used.

[Victory205]

An F14B disintegrated at ~Mach 1.5 on a simple training flight killing a RIO that I had flown with for a couple of years. It was caused by an eddy in the burner section that resulted in a burn through of the burner can. The flame plume cut the hydraulic lines to the stabilator, which cases an instant and severe asymmetry that ripped the airplane apart. This happened several times until circumstances allowed for proper investigation.

 

People die in this business, so why would anyone intentionally attempt to severely over stress an airframe, just for kicks?

 

Don’t believe the BS you hear about the “celebrity” F14 pilots. Almost all of it is self promotion being parroted by those who are easily duped.