What you do that alerts another plane to your presence...

[fitness88]

Do all active radar emissions set off cockpit alerts such as RWS, LTWS, TWS, STT L&S primary and/or secondary targets, passive radar etc.?

 

 

Thank you.

[ravenzino]

Smash, and say how are you under the parachute :)

 

I guess there should be some protocol of either hand gesture or radio coms.

 

Maybe fly ahead and use some common guard band to establish radio com?

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SirJ]

yes.

 

 

the radar beam (locked or just looking around) will activate the RWR with the distinct alerts/sounds...

 

 

Even if the A/C does not light up on you radar screen due to bad echo, beaming... he will get a warning...

 

 

Have a buddy with some distance locking him up (SA-page), turn your Radar to silence and get behind him

[simo1000rr]

as long as ur radar is Active that alone will send alert to any pilot of your presence , let alone locking the plane in STT mode that ofcourse will warn any pilot of hostile activity unless its a RAYGUN call.

[Sandman1330]

Think of a radar as a flashlight in a dark room.

 

If I’m hiding in the dark, I am going to see that dude’s flashlight long before he is close enough to see me with it. I am also going to see it from the side, when it is not even pointed towards me.

 

Therefore, your radar alerts others to your presence well before you see them on your radar scope.

[fitness88]

Thanks all for the info.

 

 

What about being at the other planes 6 o'clock, will he still pick you up?

 

 

Do all emissions picked up give the same alert or does STT specifically give a different alert?

[ClearDark]

Think of a radar as a flashlight in a dark room.

 

If I’m hiding in the dark, I am going to see that dude’s flashlight long before he is close enough to see me with it. I am also going to see it from the side, when it is not even pointed towards me.

 

Therefore, your radar alerts others to your presence well before you see them on your radar scope.

 

That analogy is, sadly, incorrect.

 

In a complete dark room, you will see someone else holding a flashlight even if its not pointed at you.

 

Radars don't work like that. If the remote radar does not "scan" you, you won't be able to see it. So essentially if you are on an aircraft's flank and out of its average 140 degree scan azimuth, you won't know it's there, while if it was a dark room with flashlights, you'd see them a mile out.

[fitness88]

That analogy is, sadly, incorrect.

 

In a complete dark room, you will see someone else holding a flashlight even if its not pointed at you.

 

Radars don't work like that. If the remote radar does not "scan" you, you won't be able to see it. So essentially if you are on an aircraft's flank and out of its average 140 degree scan azimuth, you won't know it's there, while if it was a dark room with flashlights, you'd see them a mile out.

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.

Would you know if all radar scan types give off the same indicators in the F/A-18. Also what exactly does passive radar do?

[harm_]

Thanks all for the info.

What about being at the other planes 6 o'clock, will he still pick you up?

 

His RWR will pick your radar emissions disregarding your bearing from him. (Unless he is banking and his RWR receiver antenas are masked)

 

If you mean if his radar can detect you when you are at his 6, no he won't. (Unless it is an awacs)

 

Do all emissions picked up give the same alert or does STT specifically give a different alert?

 

STT is a different alert, and also there is another different alert for Missile Lauches

[Moafuleum]

See the radar as a Laser pointer but not so focused. You cam only see a laser pointer if it is directly pointed into ypur eye (disregard the reflections at water drops in the air for now). It is the same case with the radar. You only "feel" it when it is pointed towards you. The radar's beam is pretty focused compared to a flashlight. You only cover a bigger volume because of the scanning

[Moafuleum]

STT is a different alert, and also there is another different alert for Missile Lauches

 

I am actually wondering why a STT signal is picked up differently when a missile is launched. For fox3 you don't need a lock at all and the missile's seeker goes active usually at a later point. For fox1 shots you need the same STT lock as without a missile shot. How does a RWR know that a fox1 was shot?

[fitness88]

His RWR will pick your radar emissions disregarding your bearing from him. (Unless he is banking and his RWR receiver antenas are masked)

 

If you mean if his radar can detect you when you are at his 6, no he won't. (Unless it is an awacs)

 

 

 

STT is a different alert, and also there is another different alert for Missile Lauches

 

 

 

So does selecting passive radar defeat the RWR by not emitting any radar and allow you to still detect aircraft? If so what capabilities does passive radar exactly have?

[Sandman1330]

That analogy is, sadly, incorrect.

 

In a complete dark room, you will see someone else holding a flashlight even if its not pointed at you.

 

Radars don't work like that. If the remote radar does not "scan" you, you won't be able to see it. So essentially if you are on an aircraft's flank and out of its average 140 degree scan azimuth, you won't know it's there, while if it was a dark room with flashlights, you'd see them a mile out.

 

The RWR can still get indications off of sidelobe, just at reduced ranges - much like the flashlight analogy. You won’t see him as far out if the flashlight is pointed away. Maybe consider it as one of those more focussed mag lights with a narrow strong beam...

 

No analogy is perfect but this is pretty close.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Sandman1330
First answer was unnecessarily snarky ;)

[probad]

So does selecting passive radar defeat the RWR by not emitting any radar and allow you to still detect aircraft? If so what capabilities does passive radar exactly have?

are you even reading and processing what people are saying here?

you seem absolutely hellbent on believing there exists in dcs some way to ping the enemy with your radar without the receiver's knowledge. there is none. give it up.

you do not have a low probability intercept aesa radar, and so as long as the enemy has an rwr, you will be detected.

radar, for our purpose here, is intrinsically active. you must emit. there is no way to disguise your emission.

passive reception of radio waves gets you an rwr.

 

you're shouting into a canyon and listening for the echo (radar)

anyone with an ear can hear you (rwr)

if you don't want people knowing you exist, don't shout (turn the radar off)

 

if you want "passive" information gathering, use datalink capabilities where someone else does the emitting for you.

Edited April 29, 2019 by probad

[EcceHomo]

The RWR antenna analyses the received radiation signals, including PRI, and compares the data with the database. The radar model and threat degree are obtained. The ALR-67V also seems to have a missile launch warning.

[fitness88]

are you even reading and processing what people are saying here?

you seem absolutely hellbent on believing there exists in dcs some way to ping the enemy with your radar without the receiver's knowledge. there is none. give it up.

you do not have a low probability intercept aesa radar, and so as long as the enemy has an rwr, you will be detected.

radar, for our purpose here, is intrinsically active. you must emit. there is no way to disguise your emission.

passive reception of radio waves gets you an rwr.

 

you're shouting into a canyon and listening for the echo (radar)

anyone with an ear can hear you (rwr)

if you don't want people knowing you exist, don't shout (turn the radar off)

 

if you want "passive" information gathering, use datalink capabilities where someone else does the emitting for you.

 

 

 

I thought there was the ability to passively pick up target aircraft on the radar without alerting the target.

I see I was mistaken it's the job of the RWR, thanks for the clarity.

Edited April 30, 2019 by fitness88

[probad]

i figure you might have been confusing l/tws track (vs stt) with actually being silent and dark.

 

when you use surveillance modes like tws(not yet implemented) and ltws you are nevertheless emitting and will show up on rwr, it's just that receiving rwrs won't know whether you locked (and in the case of tws, launched), because the radar stays using search emissions the whole time.

Edited April 30, 2019 by probad

[fitness88]

i figure you might have been confusing l/tws track (vs stt) with actually being silent and dark.

 

when you use surveillance modes like tws(not yet implemented) and ltws you are nevertheless emitting and will show up on rwr, it's just that receiving rwrs won't know whether you locked (and in the case of tws, launched), because the radar stays using search emissions the whole time.

 

 

 

I'll start keeping my radar on 'silent' a bit more often rather than broadcast my presence blindly and watch the RWR...especially when I'm in unknown territory.

Cheers!

[SFJackBauer]

I'll start keeping my radar on 'silent' a bit more often rather than broadcast my presence blindly and watch the RWR...especially when I'm in unknown territory.

Cheers!

 

It's more complicated than that. Sometimes you need to keep your radar continuously emitting if its the only means of knowing if someone is out there (and if its your mission to know where they are).

 

If you can rely on AWACS and your SA page, then yes, you can keep your emissions to a minimum. But even AWACS cannot see past mountains, so you must be aware of potential blind spots in AWACS coverage. EWR, being situated in the ground, has an even smaller horizon.

 

Imagine the following situation:

 

- You in a Hornet

- Enemy A - Su-27 at 80 miles 40,000 feet, with radar on - plainly visible to AWACS

- Enemy B - Su-27 at 20 miles 3000 feet, radar off, terrain masking - hidden from AWACS

 

Is it better for you to keep your radar off, therefore not announcing your position to enemy A which is far away enough that it cannot engage you, and won't see you on radar, but not picking up enemy B which is stalking around with the IRST and about to kill you with an R-27ET?

 

It all boils down to how much information you have about the battlespace - are you 100% confident that the enemy B does not exist?

[Santi871]

I am actually wondering why a STT signal is picked up differently when a missile is launched. For fox3 you don't need a lock at all and the missile's seeker goes active usually at a later point. For fox1 shots you need the same STT lock as without a missile shot. How does a RWR know that a fox1 was shot?

 

because the radar uses different signals for guiding a fox 1 vs STT

[fitness88]

It's more complicated than that. Sometimes you need to keep your radar continuously emitting if its the only means of knowing if someone is out there (and if its your mission to know where they are).

 

If you can rely on AWACS and your SA page, then yes, you can keep your emissions to a minimum. But even AWACS cannot see past mountains, so you must be aware of potential blind spots in AWACS coverage. EWR, being situated in the ground, has an even smaller horizon.

 

Imagine the following situation:

 

- You in a Hornet

- Enemy A - Su-27 at 80 miles 40,000 feet, with radar on - plainly visible to AWACS

- Enemy B - Su-27 at 20 miles 3000 feet, radar off, terrain masking - hidden from AWACS

 

Is it better for you to keep your radar off, therefore not announcing your position to enemy A which is far away enough that it cannot engage you, and won't see you on radar, but not picking up enemy B which is stalking around with the IRST and about to kill you with an R-27ET?

 

It all boils down to how much information you have about the battlespace - are you 100% confident that the enemy B does not exist?

 

 

Good example you gave, it comes down to the mission you're on. I keep thinking I'll see him before he sees me if he turns on his radar first but I forgot about IRST and donors.

Edited April 30, 2019 by fitness88

[deadpool]

I am actually wondering why a STT signal is picked up differently when a missile is launched. For fox3 you don't need a lock at all and the missile's seeker goes active usually at a later point. For fox1 shots you need the same STT lock as without a missile shot. How does a RWR know that a fox1 was shot?

 

If you stay with the lightbeam analogy imagine this:

 

Search radar -> light house. The beam is going to hit you once every second or two seconds for a brief moment and you'll be in the light.

 

Pro: Enemies do know that you're there, and that they might have been spotted (if the return energy was enough and made it through your filters).

Pro: The sender covers a larger amount of space and can get an overview

Pro: The precise target you have in mind to attack won't know that he is singled out, he can only make assumptions about the risk factor.

Con: The sender can only get data on you every 1-2 seconds.

 

 

STT -> you get pinged more frequently, as the radar doesn't seem to be searching, but solely focused on you.

 

Pro: The sender will know precisely what you're doing with little latency, he will have up to date info and it will be harder to get lost in between the sweeps.

Con: You will only see the one target (it's a STT single target track)

Con: The guy being painted will know that you have a high interest in him, most likely not because you like him. He might start going defensive or be at least more alerted in regards to your actions.

 

CW -> All the radar energy the sender can muster is being shot at you, making you appear as bright as possible on the return.

Pro: A target being this bright has a high chance of returning enough energy so that a semi-active radar guided missile can use it to guide on him.

Con: The RWR of the guy getting painted will most likely tell him that he is the centerpiece of attention and most likely has a missile incoming on him, as there is no other reasonable explanation for this much radar energy coming towards him.

 

But this is a mix up already, as there are different modes of STT and also different search modes. Modes like RWS, TWS, LTWS were all mentioned before and I suggest reading this bit of documentation http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#an-awg-9-radar here to dive into further detail on them.

 

As for missile guidance, there are different classifications:

 

FOX-1 (AIM-7, 530, ...)

These semi-active radar homing missiles will usually use the flashlight approach.

As soon as you shoot them or a few milliseconds earlier actually, your radar will illuminate the target. The target will know why, and it will act accordingly, but it won't see the missile on the RWR itself, just your plane. And once it has defeated your plane's radar (terrain masking, etc..) the missile will be dumb until it reacquires the signal potentially.

 

FOX-2 (AIM-9, Magic-III, ...)

IR guided missile, no RWR warning unless the airplane has an additional system called a missile warning system. Airplanes that are known to have this might include the A-10, F-16, ...

These systems work differently and try to detect incoming missiles by their emissions of light (UV mostly) due to their rocket motors. Don't expect this to work always.

 

FOX-3 (AIM-120, ...)

These missiles are more intelligent and they have their own (shorter range) radar. Imagine telling a missiles own navigation system before launch:

"Ok, I'm going to fire you away now, the target is expected at intercept time to be at these coordinates, fly towards this intercept point and activate your radar X seconds after launch".

 

Now as long as the target is still on your radar scope, your weapon control system can provide the missile with updates of the intercept point and activation times of its own radar. And since you don't need ultra-low-latency information in the first phase of the flight, you can use modes like TWS that don't cause the target to know what's going on.

Once the missile is close to the target for it's own radar, it will turn it on for terminal guidance.

This guidance is done with a single target track, so at this moment, the RWR of the attacked airplane will pick up a second source of radar emissions with an increased frequency.

The RWRs internal libraries will match the frequency, the pulse repetition frequency / pattern and it will find out that it's a missiles seeker that's painting it. This is when the pilot will get the (M) warning in western AN/ALQ systems. This is when he considers going defensive as well.

 

 

I thought there was the ability to passively pick up target aircraft on the radar without alerting the target.

I see I was mistaken it's the job of the RWR, thanks for the clarity.

 

I would not be surprised if modern airplanes in reallife can pick up reflected radar signals that were emitted by someone else for their own computers to make sense of. But this is not modelled in DCS.

 

 

Good example you gave, it comes down to the mission you're on. I keep thinking I'll see him before he sees me if he turns on his radar first but I forgot about IRST and donors.

 

the problem with flying low and nose-cold (radar off) to sneak up no targets is that data links and target donation only works with line of sight radio communication.

So if you're down in the valleys, sneaking up on someone with the help of your AWACS, it's very likely that you either won't be receiving datalink, or that your AWACS doesn't have your position to give you a proper BOGEY DOPE.

 

BR,

Deadpool

[fitness88]

Deadpool thanks for all that great information and your insight into why we do what we're supposed to do.

It's difficult honing these skills when flying SP and when I fly MP it seems to be a bit of a fog of war situation with many I encounter so no help there. I'd like to go fly with one other pilot and start working these systems for real and most important, getting feedback from the other pilot in real time.

[fitness88]

Before flying the F-15 and now the F/A-18 I flew the Mig-29. Having the IRST even with its limited range was a nice edge to have. Sneaking up on an enemy unannounced and releasing a heat seeker was quite effective.

[Moafuleum]

Thanks deadpool for the detailed description. However I was thinking that in STT the radar is anyway only focused on one target with using continuous wave transmission?