Valve Index Hands On

[RealDCSpilot]

SDE is much less but not gone. You can tweak the overlap by fine adjusting IPD. Sweet spot for sharpness is huge, you can move your eyes around in the HMD and everything stays sharp. FOV is bigger, less diving goggles.

Fantastic upgrade for me. The only downside is LCD and black levels, but this one is much better than what i have seen in Pimax and Oculus HMD's.

[imacken]

SDE is much less but not gone. You can tweak the overlap by fine adjusting IPD. Sweet spot for sharpness is huge, you can move your eyes around in the HMD and everything stays sharp. FOV is bigger, less diving goggles.

Fantastic upgrade for me. The only downside is LCD and black levels, but this one is much better than what i have seen in Pimax and Oculus HMD's.

 

After my disappointment with the Reverb, I’m really encouraged by what you are saying. I’ve had my Index reserved for a long time now!

[RealDCSpilot]

What's disappointing with the Reverb?

[Harlikwin]

This comparison was posted on Reddit. It includes sub pixels and is per eye. IMO it puts thing in perspective a bit. The FOV is just claimed. There is still quite a clarity gap until the Acer Ojo ConceptD shows up with the Reverb.

 

 

Yeah I'd really like to see the actual math used to make this chart...

[remi]

@remi

 

Something must be terribly wrong on your end.

 

Not sure, I run the 8v8 Hornet instant action mission both with 4k + TIR and Valve Index, and with 4k I'm able to see everything I need to have high combat effectiveness, and I feel like an actual combat pilot, able to read my instruments and engage bandits with high effectiveness.

 

With the Valve Index, I can't see incoming missiles, I can't spot friendly vs foe, I can't see direction of other aircraft, I can barely read the DDIs. I feel like I'm a blind Hornet pilot with a death wish.

 

 

With the Index, either I increase the visual quality to the point of extremely low FPS, or I decrease the visual quality to the point of low combat effectiveness and still low-ish FPS.

 

 

I think the problem is DCS's VR implementation. I'm going to stick with 4k+TIR for now until ED gets their act together, which, sad to say, will probably need a completely new DCS simulation and graphics engine built from the ground-up, something that ED probably can't do at the moment considering the huge workload they currently have.

[imacken]

What's disappointing with the Reverb?

I take it you don't follow the main Reverb thread! :)

Basically, I got my Reverb about 3 weeks ago, and it went back to HP after a few days.

The only things better than the Vive Pro were resolution and SDE.

The things that - in my opinion - were not so good were (this is purely in comparison with the VP):

1) Build quality. In general, but specifically the audio headset things. Every time I clicked them up or down, I thought they were going to break!

2) Comfort. Really felt opressive, especially when wearing glasses. Unbalanced and very front heavy.

3) Audio quality poor.

4) A succession of hardware issues - black screen, audio cutting out, flickering, heat build up, etc. Now, HP are addressing these, and are at least issuing a revised cable. Only time will tell if that solves the issue. People are also talking about underpowered USB ports causing the flickering etc., but I personally was not convinced by that as I tried in separate powered USB sockets, etc.

5) The display quality was really dull compared to the VP. Lack of depth in colours, lack of blackness, and generally, no 'pop' or dynamic range. I know this is partly down to LCD comprared to OLED, but still...

6) WMR. It was not a good experience! A layer too far for me. I'll never complain about SteamVR again.

Just my opinion though. Others are quite happy.

[nrosko]

I'm still having some issue with performance and the Index, anyone know what the equivalent of running the rift at 1.5 ppd would be in the index in regards to amount of pixels being pushed?

[Harlikwin]

I'm still having some issue with performance and the Index, anyone know what the equivalent of running the rift at 1.5 ppd would be in the index in regards to amount of pixels being pushed?

 

If I understood your question correctly

 

Rift at 1.5 PD = 2916000 pixels per eye

Index at 1.1PD = 2787840 (1.2 is 3317760) PPE

 

Also make sure steam VR is givining you 200% on top of DCS as well.

[Nagilem]

After a few days in the Index, it has definitely grown on me.

 

It is comfortable to wear, excellent end to end clarity, decent brightness, excellent clarity and has worked pretty flawlessly.

 

@nrosko - I would do the SS in Steam and not in DCS. I have mine set to 150% and use the DCS MSAAx2. For me that is performing well almost everywhere. I also turned the Motion Smoothing off since that seems to cause me ghosting issues. In Steam, the SS % will give you the 'resolution' being driven to the headset.

[RealDCSpilot]

@remi

 

 

I haven't checked the hornet for a long time, i really have to check it again. What already worked well (with the Vive Pro) were 2 vs 4 interceptions with the Mirage (BVR turning into dogfights with my wingman just as cannon fodder). I can read the HUD, the radar and have situational awareness, see smoke trails of missiles. Won a couple of PVP fights too, missile evading, radar notching, all worked out well. But, i just entered the AA aspect just a couple of weeks ago, i was into AG mostly for years now (Ka-50, Harrier, Huey ...). I have to start to train the hornet to see about combat effectiveness with it in VR.

 

@imacken

thanks for reposting, i completely missed the Reverb thread. Most of these points may get washed away with the Index.

 

@nrosko

I can't tell exactly where the Titan xp is performance wise against the 2080ti. I would recommend set ingame PD to 1.0 and go with SteamVR SS settings. Those 1.x muliplicators were ditched by SteamVR in 2017, now it's about exact resolutions and percentages and hard to tell what 1.5 meant in 2017. However, 100% in SteamVR means panel resolution + minimum rendertarget multiplikator 1.4 (in case of the index (1440x1600) -> 2016x2240). Maybe a good starting point. For a 2080ti SteamVR recommends 150% SS for instance.

 

--

Just checked a night mission with the Huey, turned all cockpit lighting off and was surprised. With oled panels nights were always pitch black, now with the Index, despite the dark greyish levels, i can actually see details from the ground, enough to not be 100% blind anymore. It's not beautiful, but comes in handy and so much better than with the Pimax when i tested this.

[nrosko]

After a few days in the Index, it has definitely grown on me.

 

It is comfortable to wear, excellent end to end clarity, decent brightness, excellent clarity and has worked pretty flawlessly.

 

@nrosko - I would do the SS in Steam and not in DCS. I have mine set to 150% and use the DCS MSAAx2. For me that is performing well almost everywhere. I also turned the Motion Smoothing off since that seems to cause me ghosting issues. In Steam, the SS % will give you the 'resolution' being driven to the headset.

 

I'm running steam at 100%SS within the steam vr app with motion smoothing off. 1.0 in game.

 

 

When you say performing well what frame rates are you getting flying the TF-51D free flight?

 

I'm struggling to get 45 fps with the index. My Rift gets 70+ @ 1.5 in oculus debug. TBH the oculus looks sharper from what i remember. I'm going to A/B them tomorrow but it looks likely i will return it before 2 weeks.

[nrosko]

@remi

 

 

I haven't checked the hornet for a long time, i really have to check it again. What already worked well (with the Vive Pro) were 2 vs 4 interceptions with the Mirage (BVR turning into dogfights with my wingman just as cannon fodder). I can read the HUD, the radar and have situational awareness, see smoke trails of missiles. Won a couple of PVP fights too, missile evading, radar notching, all worked out well. But, i just entered the AA aspect just a couple of weeks ago, i was into AG mostly for years now (Ka-50, Harrier, Huey ...). I have to start to train the hornet to see about combat effectiveness with it in VR.

 

@imacken

thanks for reposting, i completely missed the Reverb thread. Most of these points may get washed away with the Index.

 

@nrosko

I can't tell exactly where the Titan xp is performance wise against the 2080ti. I would recommend set ingame PD to 1.0 and go with SteamVR SS settings. Those 1.x muliplicators were ditched by SteamVR in 2017, now it's about exact resolutions and percentages and hard to tell what 1.5 meant in 2017. However, 100% in SteamVR means panel resolution + minimum rendertarget multiplikator 1.4 (in case of the index (1440x1600) -> 2016x2240). Maybe a good starting point. For a 2080ti SteamVR recommends 150% SS for instance.

 

--

Just checked a night mission with the Huey, turned all cockpit lighting off and was surprised. With oled panels nights were always pitch black, now with the Index, despite the dark greyish levels, i can actually see details from the ground, enough to not be 100% blind anymore. It's not beautiful, but comes in handy and so much better than with the Pimax when i tested this.

 

The titan xp is a touch slower than a 1080ti it recoments 140% but in DCS & most other sims it really struggles at 140% with lots of ugly reprojection & i can only really run it at that in simple games.

I do want to upgrade but want to skip the current 2080ti. By the time that gfx card is out maybe there will be a new headset to get hyped for.

[Supmua]

I'm not seeing poor performance at all (relative to other headsets). Have been stepping up to 144Hz mode recently. In the TF-51D flyover instant mission diving low right away to get close to those buildings on the ground then flying to and around the lake, I'm getting solid 72 FPS (Steam SS 120%, PD 1.0). DCS at 144Hz mode is really nice since the screen feels so lifelike (super responsive) when you move your head side to side quickly. Image quality isn't the best that I can squeeze out of my setup since I use lowish SS but I'm still in the messing around stage and I already like what I'm getting. My hunch is for optimal image fidelity for my setup, it's going to be 120 Hz mode with a goal of constant 60 FPS.

 

EDIT:

One very important thing about Steam SS is that you must quit out of DCS whenever this setting is changed because it doesn't get applied right away. The proper way to do it is by pausing the game then alt-tab out to SteamVR Setting and change custom resolution in Applications panel (so it would stick the next time you run the game), then quit and restart DCS.

 

I tried different Steam SS with the TF-51D mission (144Hz mode).

150% SS (equivalent to PD 1.225): 72 fps up high but 48 fps when flying just above those buildings.

200% SS (equivalent to PD 1.414): 48 fps constant.

300% SS (equivalent to PD 1.732): 48 fps constant. (image quality is pretty darn good at 300% SS).

This sort of reaffirms that my sweet spot settings for the headset will probably be the in 120Hz mode for 60 FPS with SS in the mid 100s.

 

Just for kicks I also tried the 80Hz mode (The Rift S mode). To my surprise, I was able to maintain 80 FPS flying low at Steam SS 120% (motion smoothing is automatically off whenever FPS is the same as your screen refresh rate). This is also another viable option if I want to avoid motion smoothing (which doesn't really bother me that much at high screen refresh rate).

Edited July 4, 2019 by Supmua

[RealDCSpilot]

@nrosko

 

here is some outdated information about oculus PD settings vs old SteamVR SS:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/30436-pixel-density-supersampling-at-steamvr-oculustraytool-and-oculusdebugtool/

 

So regarding rendered resolution, what was 1.5 for the Rift, seems to be ~100% for the Index now.

 

However, please keep in mind: what a 1080ti was for 2016 gen HMD's (1080x1200) is the 2080ti now for 1440x1600 HMD's. DCS does not make good use of powerful hardware, that's the main problem, especially in VR.

You have to experiment with all options to find the performance sweet spot on older hardware. Like Supmua already mentioned, the Index offers a lot to play with, lower or higher Hz settings, combined with motion smoothing on or off. Take your time for testing, always restart game and SteamVR to make sure that changes are applied properly. Maybe antialiasing helps you more than higher supersampling? I can't tell. The 20XX series has much better/faster VRAM this is perfect for running higher resolutions for instance...

 

I also recommend setting gamma ingame to 2.2, worked well for the Vive Pro and also for the Index.

[Nagilem]

@Alec Delorean - I agree. I can say with a 2080ti card, the headset is pretty amazing. My only minor nit is I'd like to make it just a smidge brighter. Overall though, I am actually very happy with the performance.

 

I'm running it bone stock with 150% SS in Steam(PD 1.0 in DCS), motion smoothing on, MSAA x2 and 16 AF in DCS and I get consistently over 45 frames in downtown dubai @90hz. Turning it up to 120 hz doesn't produce enough differnce for me to notice - YMMV.

 

I would think turning it down to 100-120% ss with a 2080 or 1080ti card would yield very similar results.

[RealDCSpilot]

I just made a through the lens shot with Elite Dangerous, this particular scene identifies weak spots of panels pretty fast:

 

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/303984261264965641/596227011576594476/ValveIndexLCD.jpg?width=463&height=858

[Supmua]

OpenVR Advanced Settings (3.2.0) is out on Github. This allows you to adjust color overlay and much more. Don't like the default white balance or black level? Change them to your liking.

[RealDCSpilot]

Just played around with them, the settings are a bit strange - no direct color control. Brightness dims as aspected, Colors is something like a color filter on top. Does not help with LCD black levels, but to readjust white balance if needed. Or to make something like a night mode.

[Johnny Dioxin]

I just made a through the lens shot with Elite Dangerous, this particular scene identifies weak spots of panels pretty fast:

 

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/303984261264965641/596227011576594476/ValveIndexLCD.jpg?width=463&height=858

 

 

That doesn't overly bother me, really. Not enough to put me off paying up when my reserved Index becomes available.

 

I read a review likening the "glow" in Index to that of CV1 - and if that's accurate, it would not bother me in the slightest - even a bit worse will not be a biggie.

 

This picture is also taken against a "black" or dark background, so will show up worst. But what exactly is it? A menu/loading screen - so who cares? OK - it may be being used to illustrate the issue, but then it could be considered an extreme - because how many wireframe VR games do we actually have these days?

 

When seen in the context of a modern flight sim a la DCs World, I doubt if it's anything to write home about, based on such pictures. Maybe when flying at night? In that case, perhaps settings can be altered to tone down the glare - I don't know.

 

Currently there seem to be two sides to the Index story - those that say the (imo minor, from the pics shown across forums) faults are game-breaking and those who say it's a fantastic bit of kit. It was the same 3 years ago with Rift and Vive, but I have to say, even though I suffered from some of the faults, it never overly bothered me, even when one was bad enough to get a warranty replacement - all I was worried about was being without my headset for a couple of weeks!

 

Reddit is full of many, many complaining posts. A lot of those have got on, or tried to get on, to Steam support and then they are complaining they are not being responded to quickly enough. There are only 24 hours in a day and how many of us work 24 hours? I genuinely feel sorry for the Valve support team - some of whom are in fact desparately trying to placate people and help out.

 

/2 penneth :v:

[RealDCSpilot]

@Brixmis

 

 

Ohh, sorry. You might get the wrong message with these shots.

This comparison is for color levels only.

It shows how other LCD HMD's lack sRGB values against OLED HMD's.

The Index shines here, much better color reproduction at lower levels!

Almost on par with oled. Also much better luminance levels against Rift S and Pimax LCD.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Alec Delorean

[RealDCSpilot]

Some more through-the-lens shots, zoom in for checking SDE:

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/303984261264965641/596290146081570840/IMG_20190704_124329.jpg

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/303984261264965641/596290146886746140/IMG_20190704_124149.jpg

[Johnny Dioxin]

@Brixmis

 

 

Ohh, sorry. You might get the wrong message with these shots.

This comparison is for color levels only.

It shows how other LCD HMD's lack sRGB values against OLED HMD's.

The Index shines here, much better color reproduction at lower levels!

Almost on par with oled. Also much better luminance levels against Rift S and Pimax LCD.

 

 

No worries - what you posted here is a good example of what I was talking about, because many people are complaining about the "washed out" colours in the Index, though people have posted potential fixes for this, and I haven't seen any of the journalist reviews mentioning washed-out colours, either.

 

I think for me, I'll make my mind up when my Index arrives. If I really don't like it, I'll return it - but so far I'm confident I will like it.

[Supmua]

I haven't seen any washed out colors in my testing (remember that OLED colors are typically more vivid than natural, compared to LCD colors). Just played with the Batman VR app and the colors as well as black levels are really good, clarity is even better--definitely more enjoyable than on my Vive Pro.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Supmua

[TacoGrease]

Decided to pull the trigger on my reservation and bought it last night. Despite some of the issues, it seems like the best VR package overall right now

[Johnny Dioxin]

I haven't seen any washed out colors in my testing (remember that OLED colors are typically more vivid than natural, compared to LCD colors). Just played with the Batman VR app and the colors as well as black levels are really good, clarity is even better--definitely more enjoyable than on my Vive Pro.

 

See, that's another thing I've seen quite a bit of - people with Vive Pro headsets saying that the Index isn't any better, and sometimes saying it's worse.

 

This is why I will keep my order as I did with the other headsets, and make my own mind up. That's got to be the best way. I've been following the Index thread on the Oculus forums and there are too many people there listening to complaints and criticisms and discounting the headset based on such claims.

 

Doesn't affect me, of course, but it's a shame to see so many people being swayed by what is effectively false, or at best misguided or subjective, information.

 

Mind you, I feel that VR itself has suffered badly from this right from the start. It used to make me mad to see so many derogatory "reviews" of VR as a whole on both forums and popular YouTube gaming channels, some of whom never even owned a VR headset or were basing their "advice" on those cellphone headset things like Google Cardboard (which was what actually originally convinced me to go with VR), when we needed as many people as possible to be getting into it.

 

Unfortunately, that's the way things are now. People rely too much on the opinions of these amateurs on YouTube and even some of the VR sites often make me cringe with their bias and/or ignorance.

 

Still, I'll have mine, and I'm sure I'll have fun, so they can go and do what they like! :D