SEAD help

[Fynek]

Hello,

 

I have an important question please. I am new to DCS and the Viggen.

 

I have spent the whole Sunday on the GAW server trying to take out SAM like S-300, SA-11 etc..

but I almost always get killed before I even know exactly where they are and get a clean shot with the mavericks...

 

Can someone help me with tactics please? I have been reviewing every single death with Tacview but unfortunately it does not help me much apart from concluding that i perhaps should never get inside that 15 km range ( i always get killed when i do pop up above 300 meters for a RB75 shot or if I get too close.. and if not then some AI fighter shoots me down when i am focused on the SAM :) )

 

I have been trying to learn the sound alerts from the RWR but i can never know when i am locked or if a missile has just been shot at me. I have real problems to figure out what is their approximate distance to me as well so I am super stressed when i hear the sound of their radar now..

 

I also set the brightness/contrast for the Rb75 to see better and max zoom on the EP13 with trackIR but somehow i rarely spot them before they shoot at me...

 

 

My loadout is 2 x RB75, ECM and Jammer pods, and the usual sidewinders for self defence.

 

Is that a wrong load out? Should i use the Bk90 instead ?

 

Is this plane actually supposed to be able to take down advanced SAMs like S-300 reliably?

What tactics do you use against SAMs with the Viggen? I have watched the video of Badjoe on youtube (he makes really great videos for the Viggen) but what can you do when you don't have a mountain to cover you?

 

 

Thanks for your advices, at this point I completely lost confidence in myself for doing SEAD so i figured out I should ask people with more experience. Thank you.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Fynek

[Dahlbeck]

The attack Viggen (AJ and AJS) was designed for low level strikes on pre-planned (known or at least anticipated, like certain shipping) targets.

 

I can only imagine doing CAS or SEAD with it being a pain. If the location of the SAM system is known of course, the BK90 might do the job. It's not really SEAD in the traditional (US/NATO terminology) sense though.

 

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[Fynek]

Thank you for your reply Dahlbeck!

 

I have been watching just now a youtube video from a guy called CreativeFun, and apparently he baits the missiles at first in order to determine visually exactly where the SAM is located for making it easier to aim, lock and shoot the RB75 later on.

 

However, i can rarely see the missile launch.. i tried earlier today against SA10 and got shot down when trying to do so, i could never spot the missile launch.

 

Maybe there are some people who are successful engaging SAMs with the Viggen on open terrain? The issue for me is that sometimes there is more than just one SAM battery and that is when i die systematically.. :/

 

Maybe i should experiment with the Bk90. If i have the right QFE, maybe i can just approach the SAM at tree top level then shoot that BK90 at the lowest possible altitude? hmmm, I would be really curious to hear about tactics with the Viggen against SAMs.

[Harlikwin]

Fynek,

 

Having done exactly what you are trying to do here are some tips...

 

The BK90 is the most effective weapon I've found along with the kneeboard targeting help. If I'm going SAM hunting I take the jammer pod (only works on the way in, sort-of) and the chaff/flare pod. And then 2 BK90-1/2's. Also figure out where the target is. if its in the mountains its much harder (not impossible, I took out a whole mountaintop SA10 in one go once, keyword being once). Otherwise figure out where it is and that no one else is gunning for it. Then figure out your own B2 point for ingress using as much terrain cover as you can (nearby ridge/valley/hill whatever). Run in mach .9 as low as you can go (5-10m) at 10km pop up to a few hundred meters (under 500), dump both the bk90's immediately turn 90 degrees left or right to make the missiles work for it, get back down to the ground and jink like mad on max burner punching flares and chaff. I sometimes use F6 to see if I hit anything if its a lower threat environment. Wait for the kill messages.

 

Pro tips. if you can do it don't fly ingress over trees, DCS radars see through trees, unreasilitic but true, they only count your alt over terrain, and trees easily add 50m to it.

 

You can also use CTRL F11 to look at your target beforehand to figure out which dispersal pattern you want to use for the BK's. Generally I find concentrated (defauilt) and 2 bk-90's will get you at least one hit mostly, its hit or miss with the long/wide modes because cluster bomb effects are seriously undermodled in DCS.

 

If you are more brave, you can try it with the parachute retarded bombs and DYK mode, this gives you more "accuracy" but against sams you'll likely die.

 

I'd never use the mavericks for anything myself, I can't see anything in VR on the screen.

[Fynek]

Thank you so much for your reply and these interesting advices Harlikwin, you truly give me some hope! Cheers :)

 

*runs to train with the BK-90 immediately*

[TOViper]

Fynek,

I'd never use the mavericks for anything myself, I can't see anything in VR on the screen.

 

 

I wouldn't say I've never used them, but this is 100% true.

The sight through the EP-13 is REALLY awful.

[TLTeo]

The best way I found to use the RB75 is to spot the targets on radar and do a radar fix in their general area; that way, their location also shows up on the HUD. After that you can just point your nose at them, as the targets are relatively visible through the scope at 15ish kms and the seeker head does a fair job of locking them up. After attacking just hit "rensa" (clear) once on the input panel to clear your last navigation fix, which will avoid messing up the navigation back to base.

 

The downside of this method is that you need to be at relatively high altitude (a few hundred meters at least?) to spot ground targets with the radar at 20-30km, so it's not very well suited for attacks on positions defended by long range SAMs.

 

edit: now that I think about it, this solution is literally the poor's man version of slaving the Maverick seeker to a TPOD, so it may be somewhat realistic...

Edited June 4, 2019 by TLTeo

[Harlikwin]

TLTeo, do you fly in VR?

[Harlikwin]

Thank you so much for your reply and these interesting advices Harlikwin, you truly give me some hope! Cheers :)

 

*runs to train with the BK-90 immediately*

 

I've seen you on GAW, I'll give you shout sometime so we can do it together. 2 viggens are better than 1.

[TLTeo]

TLTeo, do you fly in VR?

 

 

I don't, but my god awful eye sight makes me feel like I do sometimes ;)

 

 

On a serious note, I have managed to get the missile to lock on targets I personally couldn't see through the scope, which is why I figured my method might be handy for VR users.

[Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson]

Hi, just wanted to give you my 2 cents. It's not the best way but I found it pretty reliable. My most feared targets are not the S-300, but SA-19 and Shilkas. SA-11 are also pretty hard because launchers have their own radar.

 

 

 

For the regular SAMs, I choose the pure Viggen way : freakin' low and freakin' fast. Go under the trees as much as you can. Use the terrain as much as you can, and very important : avoid very big cities and forests.

 

 

 

These two points brings me to a very important feature of the Viggen, often forgotten : BRIEFING. PRE PLANIFICATION. This is really important.

 

 

 

Before trying to do SEAD, I choose my path by myself. This is why it's pretty hard for missions that are done by someone else with triggers.

 

 

 

Place at least one or two waypoints on key places to test your inertial drift. Place your waypoints to avoid flying over big forests and cities, because doing this will allow you to fly much closer to the ground for a longer time. Specially if you do SEAD against SA-10. They have a low altitude tracking radar (the tall one), and is deadly if you are just over the trees. And use terrain lines to set a path that will hide you as much as possible. The Viggen have a pretty decent range, so I don't hesitate to use it even if I must do 20-30nm more to avoid dangerous areas.

 

 

 

As for weapons, I usually try to avoid BK-90, because I wish to stay in a 70's/80's era weapons as much as I can. But I take them on big missions and well proteced sites though because they are reliable.

 

 

 

Bombs with drag chute does the job pretty well. If your SAM site is not protected by close range guided weapons such as ZSU-23, SA-19, SA-15 or SA-8 and IR sams, Rockets can be good too. For unprotected SA-10, I manage to get close to the SAM so it can't fire on me. Then I'm free to do what I want, aim for precise shots with ARAKs. But if the site is protected, BK-90 or high drag bombs will be my choice.

 

 

 

Don't hesitate to share with me if you don't agree with anything I said.

 

 

 

And remember : the Viggen is not really a SEAD/DEAD platform...

Edited June 4, 2019 by Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson

[AeriaGloria]

Isn’t it possible to get the Rb-15 to attack a set of land coordinates? Never tried it myself but heard here it’s possible

[renhanxue]

That is possible on the later variants of the RBS15 AFAIK, but not on the variant the AJS 37 could carry.

[Streicher]

I agree and would even say that the Viggen is not a SEAD platform at all. It has no weapons that can surpress (SEAD) hostile radars long enough for any worthwhile window of opportunity for other flights.

But I think every air-to-ground capable plane is somewhat capable of destroying (DEAD) an actual SAM site. It get's easier if the site is being surpressed during the attack or otherwise occupied (eg. Wild Weasel). And those roles the Viggen can fill pretty ok. It has several ways to stand-off and/or cluster attack a site and the high speed, good RWR and big fuel tank help with the wild weasel role.

MERAD can be defeated pretty good by a wall of Mavericks to oversaturate their defensive fire.

SEAD and DEAD are taskings best done as a team.

 

Also if the actual tasking is a strike on a high value target, you can and should just ignore most SAM. You don't have to peel the air defenses first before going for the throat.

Thus the real pain are modern SHORAD like Tunguska and Tor placed to defend the target.

 

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[Fynek]

Thank you very much guys, very helpful advices here.

 

The trick of not wasting time to slew and instead pointing the aircraft at the target and flying into it then locking it has helped me a lot. The advice with the radar lock before hand is very useful as well.

 

I've seen you on GAW, I'll give you shout sometime so we can do it together. 2 viggens are better than 1.

 

Sure that would be great! I am 'Pylikan' there, thanks!

Edited June 5, 2019 by Fynek

[Elor]

good RWR

Frankly, I think the Viggen has a rather crude RWR. it has a blind spot directly ahead, only gives you vague directions from where the radar energy is coming from, no launch warning and only different sounds to determine what type of threat the radar source is.:cry:

[Jowen G. Bruère-Dawson]

with little practice, the Viggen's RWR is pretty good, specialy for 60's technology

[Harlikwin]

Yeah the rwr is ok in the sense if it starts beeping alot you know you are hosed and you need to take evasive action. The CM pod and jammer pod are a must if you are going up against sams.

 

DCS lets radar/weapons go through trees unfortunately, so try not overfly them.

 

Probably the worst are SA11 and SA15 along with tungaskas. SA10 is so so, the SA2/3/6 aren't too bad.

[Rover]

Jammer pod do work but its not a miracle worker, On a SA-10 it only gives you about 9 extra seconds before lock if your traveling 800km/h at 3000m, however the lower altitude you are at the bigger the difference, but this is just from my own testing, your result may vary :P

Also the better the SAM crew is the less they are affected by jammers, above examples is a average crew, an exelent crew might only give you 2 sec extra ;)

[Harlikwin]

DCS needs to have a "drunk on vodka" crew state... :)

[TLTeo]

I thought that was the default state of the AI