Overshooting the base leg on overhead pattern

[Migo]

Hey guys, I've been practicing the overhead pattern for a few days now and am getting more and more comfortable with it. The only thing that's giving me a headache is that I overshoot the angle to the runway on the base leg when having a 30° bank angle. I am flying the crosswind leg with Gs of 1% of speed, so I should be fine there. I only manage to get the base leg runway angle right when doing a 35-45° bank.

 

What could I be doing wrong? I attached a short track in case someone is willing to analyze one of my landings.

overhead_overshoot.trk

[Zyll]

it really is about getting a feel for the whole pattern, which means repeated practice. 30 degrees and keeping your Gs at 1% of your indicated airspeed are good places to start, but I find (just like you), that these are not hard-set rules that will always ensure a perfect alignment on base.

 

Personally, I find that I need to adjust my bank angle on base depending on how far abeam of the ship I am at the 90 degree mark (ie. when you are the closest distance from the ship). If I am 1nm from the ship, then the 30 degree bank is what works for me. If I'm 1.2 or 1.4nm abeam, then I use a shallower bank. These are what work for me, YMMV:

 

Nm Bank Angle

1.0 30°

1.1 26°

1.2 23°

1.4 19°

 

This is also dependent on how far downwind you fly before turning on base. I like to think I'm doing it at the right moment.

 

What's interesting, is that I'm finding my banks need to be shallower than the recommended 30 degrees, but you are actually quite a bit steeper. Are you sure you are reading the bank markers correctly? 0, 5 deg, 15 deg, 30 deg, 45 deg

[Migo]

Hey Zyll, thanks for the reply. Yes, I am reading the markers like that. I know it needs a lot of practice to get the pattern down, but the thing is that I don't have a clue what I am currently doing wrong. I think I got all the factors down like speed, altitude, Gs, AoA with which I was struggling in the beginning.

[Zyll]

I'm sure someone can view your track file and give some good feedback. I'm away from my computer otherwise I would take a look.

[Harker]

I also find that a constant 30 degree bank angle doesn't work for me. I usually aim for 1.1-1.2nm abeam and I find that I use something like 25 degrees bank.

[abak]

I think that correct bank angle also depends on your weight. Usually you are already trimmed to on speed by the time you start the turn. So your true airspeed may easily be anywhere between 125 knots (if you are light) and 140 knots (if you are heavy). Now, turn radius for 30 degrees bank turn is 0.4 nm at 125 knots, and 0.5 nm at 140 knots.

[Habu_69]

Flying by the numbers is a good guide, but your primary guide under VFR should be Mk 1 Eyeball, adjusting bank as the runway rotates in your view perspective. Takes some experience, as I find the last 10-20 degrees appears to rotate into alignment quicker than expected.

[Zyll]

I just watched the track. You are landing on an airfield, so the rules don't apply exactly. the most important thing is that on a carrier deck, the landing strip is offset 9 degrees from the bearing of your upwind and downwind legs, so you need to turn 189 degrees to be aligned with the runway. It also seemed you were quite fast, 171 knots, so you may have been heavy. For a carrier landing, you should aim for 33,000 lbs or lower when landing.

 

Give it a try on a carrier, turn on TACAN so you can get an accurate reading of your abeam distance, and try to hit all the marks (Gs 1% of speed, 1.2-1.4nm from the ship, turn on base when you see the back of the ship for 30 degrees) and see how you fare.

[donkeyrider]

I maintain 30 degrees of bank until around 45 degrees from the runway centre line. After that I just align visually.

 

In short, use 30 degrees to get the turn started then once you can see the runway, adjust bank so that you set up on finals nicely.

[David OC]

I just watched the track. You are landing on an airfield, so the rules don't apply exactly. the most important thing is that on a carrier deck, the landing strip is offset 9 degrees from the bearing of your upwind and downwind legs, so you need to turn 189 degrees to be aligned with the runway. It also seemed you were quite fast, 171 knots, so you may have been heavy. For a carrier landing, you should aim for 33,000 lbs or lower when landing.

 

Give it a try on a carrier, turn on TACAN so you can get an accurate reading of your abeam distance, and try to hit all the marks (Gs 1% of speed, 1.2-1.4nm from the ship, turn on base when you see the back of the ship for 30 degrees) and see how you fare.

 

Haven't seen the track...

 

If practicing landing at an airfield put an object around the start of the runway that represents the deck. There are cones also that you can place on or near the runway for touch and goes. Hopefully we will get airfield lights at some point.

 

The big thing is to not break abeam like you do at the boat. Because the airfield is not moving away at 30 knots. So you go downwind further to give yourself the groove length. The angled deck is another thing that can only be learnt at the boat. Also the wind can be offset when practicing at an airfield, as you cannot turn the runway into the wind.

[Zyll]

Oh of course, the moving ship will affect your position when you come out of the turn as well, good point

[Migo]

I appreciate all the advice. I just watched the Hornet pattern landing video from Wags. His distance is 1.5nm when mid-downwind and mine is 1.0nm most of the time.

 

So I have to figure out how to fly the crosswind differently. I think am already pretty precise with flying with Gs of 1% of my speed but something must be off though.

 

Update: Just flew the crosswind a bit differently which set me up 1.2nm abeam the runway and I could land just fine with a ~30° bank angle.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Migo

[victorlima01]

Migo I was running into the same problems as you. Turns out if you ease up on the break once you're at the middle of the 180 degree turn you'll be much closer to 1.2-1.3 abeam distance. And at 1.2-1.3 nm abeam, you can pretty much maintain your aob around 27 degrees. Once you're at the 90, revert to visual and use the needles and the tacan as well to help you line up (tacan needle crosses over as you pass through the wake). It takes a little practice but eventually you will begin to get a feel for how you're looking at the 90 and adjust your aob accordingly to roll-out on centerline and on speed. 1.0 nm abeam is a little too close for comfort in my opinion. You'll need an agressive bank angle, which means more power, which tends to mean more fluctuations as you're easing into and out of turns.

 

I was trying to not use the acls needles on case I patterns not to create a dependency on it but turns out most real world guys use it - and not to help with line up either, but actually to help with glideslope from the 90 onwards. Or so I've been told

[Migo]

More good advice there and I am glad not to be the only one who ran into this problem.

 

Another factor which I didn't take into account until now was weight. I created the Hornet in my practice mission with a weight of 37k pounds and changed this to be around 30k now. It's way different as I am able to fly the base leg with 130 knots instead of 150-170 as before.

[Zyll]

If it was all easy, we would have gotten bored with the Hornet long ago ;)

[majapahit]

Never mind the bank angle of the base leg.

 

 

You trim your bank angle from 10-90% to whatever you need, to end up smack in the middle of the threshold.

 

 

Which is far more important than any NATOPS number.

 

 

You train a lot in particular to hit the wanted heights, distances and the right speed, which should end you up smack in the middle of a. the deck, b. the runway,

 

 

the bank angle comes in last (and by itself).

Edited July 6, 2019 by majapahit

[Hog_No32]

[...]

Which is far more important than any NATOPS number.

 

You train a lot in particular to hit the wanted heights, distances and the right speed, [...]

 

So, by „wanted“ heights, distances and speeds you mean...the NATOPS numbers, right?:music_whistling:

[Chuck_Henry]

The G's for 1% of airspeed rule is not for the entire break turn. Once you lower gear and flaps, assess how tight or wide you are in relation to the runway and adjust your bank angle (adding in forward stick pressure as necessary to keep from ballooning) to roll out at the appropriate abeam distance. My technique is typically to shallow out to 20-25* angle of bank as soon I slap the gear and flap handles down right at 250.

 

In real life and in sims with sufficient scenery detail, you want to be familiar with the airfield's surroundings and create a good ground reference point to fly over each time. The goal with VFR traffic patterns in general is to fly the same ground track each time, not hit the wickets of 27-30* AOB each time. What you must never do, verified with a friend of mine who's a T-45 SNA, are bust 600' AGL or exceed 45* AOB in the 180 turn. The former can lead to a mid-air with someone in the break who gets sloppy with their altitude. The latter can prove catastrophic if you lose your left engine (assuming a left pattern) and get slow.

 

The FTI and NATOPS numbers are an ideal starting point for a no-wind standard day at typical landing weight, but they are by no means hard and fast rules. Use your eyeballs and "do that pilot shit."

[majapahit]

So, by „wanted“ heights, distances and speeds you mean...the NATOPS numbers, right?:music_whistling:

Called ass backwards. First learn how to fly (or rather, learn to land, solo), then you 'train' how to fly these specific numbers.

 

You thus knew all the basic stuff of to 'fly' (rather, to land., take-off is nothing),

 

because otherwise you're with your clown nose in the mud, and your instructor under investigation for letting a clown on the controls too long.

 

Banking 30° and 'let's see if this brings us to the threshold' is ass backwards.

 

'My plane' and keep your hands where I can see them.

Edited July 8, 2019 by majapahit

[Lex Talionis]

The only natops number that does not work well in the game is the abeam distance. Becase on-speed in the game is aprox 10 knots slower than RL, your approach turn circle is smaller inducing an under shooting condition (all other things equal, on-speed, 600 agl, recip heading, 30*AOB, etc). I use the minimum NATOPS abeam distance (1.2) for this reason. All other NATOPS number work given the boat is also set up correctly with 25-30 kts WOD and you are in fact turning at the abeam (not early or late)

 

... I have vids on how to make the approach turn and manage the energy state of the aircraft to arriveat a good start. This is a multi faceted concept that is hard to explain accurately through txt.

 

If you achieve the NATOPS numbers, math and geometry works. The more you deviate from those numbers, the more variables you are inducing for which very few understand exactly what the ramifications will be. Finding a constant AOB off the abeam that geometrically sets you up to a good start is key for isolating your virt component of lift such that your power requirements and overall energy state is as stable as possible. Greatly and constantly varying your AOB will make arriving at the start with a stable energy state problematic. Despite popular beliefe, it is not the wire caught that matters, it is the quality of the pass you are graded on in RL.

 

Any questions find us on discord. Hope this helps:)

Edited July 9, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[majapahit]

... The more you deviate from those numbers, the more variables you are inducing for which very few understand exactly what the ramifications will be. ....

properly - and safely - said, mr instructor, one would be introducing a lot more and rather unwieldy parameters, and now for the Scheiss Heiser Zerbrechen. That's the guy(s) you rated 'he/she will go places' some time ago if fate and fortune would have it, what. Fortunately this DCS is a simulator, and we can try, try and try again with our multi million dollar contraption and a support team of dozens, all made from pixels, at a cost of $75 and 350W to operate, because boy would we have a problem.

Edited July 9, 2019 by majapahit

[Zyll]

Huh??

[Zyll]

Personally, I'm gonna continue to practice hitting the important markers, with the goal of making consistent landings that all look identical. I guess it's not real life, so whatever floats your boat if you want to wing it and go 10 to 90 degrees on the base turn, knock yourself out.

[maxTRX]

Huh??

 

 

:megalol: Oh, don't worry... he's talking to Herr Zerbrechen...

[majapahit]

Personally, I'm gonna continue to practice hitting the important markers, with the goal of making consistent landings that all look identical. I guess it's not real life, so whatever floats your boat if you want to wing it and go 10 to 90 degrees on the base turn, knock yourself out.

boring