[LATER IN EARLY ACCESS] Don't We Need a Surface Radar?

[dores893]

The surface radar is the heart and soul of the F/A-18's ability to be an efficient ground pounder. Can you deploy ordinance without it: yes. Should you: H to the no. It's the brain of the operation, and we don't have it yet.

 

For example, we are getting a Harpoon. In a traditional Harpoon launch, you would go to the SEA submode of the surface search radar and lock on to a ship. That information is handed off to the Harpoon when you set up its flight profile. Without it, all you can do is a boresight launch and hope the Harpoon's radar picks up your target (and not a neutral or friendly).

 

By the same token, you would lock a fixed ground target from the Real Beam Ground Map sub-mode as an FTT (Fixed Target Track) or if "moving" then from the GMTT (ground moving target track submode). The radar basically goes "STT" on a ground target. This information is handed off to your JDAMs, Mavs, Paveways, JSOWs, or SLAM-ER making deployment of stores much easier.

 

The targeting pod is great, but only really needed for IFF and lasing. Also not have ALAS (auto-lase) is a bit painful.

 

What I'm saying is basically we are doing our grand pounding in the hardest possible way and in a way the Hornet was not really intended to be used. Better to fly top cover for the A-10s and hope for TWS in the near future.

[joelsi]

A2G radar is coming later in EA. No time estimate when it's coming to EA.

[Svend_Dellepude]

JDAM and JSOW are probably probably launched in pb mode anyways.

For now there is more than enough info from the SA page and the TPOD to do effecient CAS.

You will get your radar in due time. :)

[Harlikwin]

Well, you're not wrong.

 

But yeah, "at some point" we will get an A/G radar in it. And "at some point" we will get a better thermal model.

[Silver_Dragon]

The surface radar is the heart and soul of the F/A-18's ability to be an efficient ground pounder. Can you deploy ordinance without it: yes. Should you: H to the no. It's the brain of the operation, and we don't have it yet.

 

For example, we are getting a Harpoon. In a traditional Harpoon launch, you would go to the SEA submode of the surface search radar and lock on to a ship. That information is handed off to the Harpoon when you set up its flight profile. Without it, all you can do is a boresight launch and hope the Harpoon's radar picks up your target (and not a neutral or friendly).

 

By the same token, you would lock a fixed ground target from the Real Beam Ground Map sub-mode as an FTT (Fixed Target Track) or if "moving" then from the GMTT (ground moving target track submode). The radar basically goes "STT" on a ground target. This information is handed off to your JDAMs, Mavs, Paveways, JSOWs, or SLAM-ER making deployment of stores much easier.

 

The targeting pod is great, but only really needed for IFF and lasing. Also not have ALAS (auto-lase) is a bit painful.

 

What I'm saying is basically we are doing our grand pounding in the hardest possible way and in a way the Hornet was not really intended to be used. Better to fly top cover for the A-10s and hope for TWS in the near future.

 

Wags talk about them some weeks ago...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3967134&postcount=167

Please note that all dates and time projections are best estimates at the time and can change. I mention this a bit here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=244404

 

In parallel though, other tasks are steaming ahead like new features for the SA page including STEP, EXP, TXDSG, and other elements to complete this system. We are also making great progress on the Harpoon and it went into internal testing today. As noted, before, initial implementation of the air-to-ground radar rendering technology is now being used to create the Real Beam (RB) mode for the radar. Once RB mode is done, we can then use that as the foundation for other modes like SEA, EXP, GMTI, etc. On the GPS-weapon front, work continues on dynamic launch zones for JDAM and JSOW, Track While Scan (TWS) radar mode is underway, and other items and bug fixes.

 

Thanks,

Wags

 

About TGP, that has WIP actually

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3994864&postcount=171

Other elements will be coming to the pod like HUD symbology, INR and snowplow modes, slaving options, additional reticles, AA mode, and more

[Harlikwin]

[Wizard_03]

Other then harpoon attacks Surface radar is almost never used IRL. The lpod is gonna be a better choice in pretty much every scenario. There’s no advantage to using the surface modes over what we already have in game now. EA or not withstanding.

 

It’s hardly the aircrafts heart and soul of ground pounding.

[Kev2go]

Other then harpoon attacks Surface radar is almost never used IRL. The lpod is gonna be a better choice in pretty much every scenario. There’s no advantage to using the surface modes over what we already have in game now. EA or not withstanding.

 

It’s hardly the aircrafts heart and soul of ground pounding.

 

Seems like it will very nice aid to me, especially considering the apg73 phase 2 radar having SAR technology. Sure you still cant expect to plink individual tanks with it, but for stationary targets that are larger and more distinguishable, it will be feasible to use as it will allow you to build up better SA of your surrounding environment, and use as a targeting sensor.

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=202523

Edited August 7, 2019 by Kev2go

[Jak525]

Other then harpoon attacks Surface radar is almost never used IRL. The lpod is gonna be a better choice in pretty much every scenario. There’s no advantage to using the surface modes over what we already have in game now. EA or not withstanding.

 

It’s hardly the aircrafts heart and soul of ground pounding.

Keep in mind it can be used for target designation. You can designate an A/G TGT via the HUD or HMD I believe, via the A/G radar. Being able to point and designate with the HMD would be huge.

[Wizard_03]

It’s an interesting capability for sure. But as an active sensor it’s not always desirable in emcon situations, and the availability of Lpods make it somewhat moot anyway. The HMD dose not need surface radar for that either, It can use it but it’s not essential.

 

Don’t get me wrong I’m excited to see EDs implementation of it too, but it’s just not gonna be a huge game changer for AG.

[Jak525]

It’s an interesting capability for sure. But as an active sensor it’s not always desirable in emcon situations, and the availability of Lpods make it somewhat moot anyway. The HMD dose not need surface radar for that either, It can use it but it’s not essential.

 

Don’t get me wrong I’m excited to see EDs implementation of it too, but it’s just not gonna be a huge game changer for AG.

How? Hornet has no terrain data. Maybe it could use the LTD/R instead but I don't see how it could do it alone.

[Oceandar]

Other then harpoon attacks Surface radar is almost never used IRL. The lpod is gonna be a better choice in pretty much every scenario. There’s no advantage to using the surface modes over what we already have in game now. EA or not withstanding.

 

It’s hardly the aircrafts heart and soul of ground pounding.

I agree. While its nice to have A2G radar but its not everything. A-10C doesnt have that and still kickin without it. I remember one of Viper pilot said he rarely uses ground radar to conduct a strike, mostly relied on Sniper pod.

[Harlikwin]

It’s an interesting capability for sure. But as an active sensor it’s not always desirable in emcon situations, and the availability of Lpods make it somewhat moot anyway. The HMD dose not need surface radar for that either, It can use it but it’s not essential.

 

Don’t get me wrong I’m excited to see EDs implementation of it too, but it’s just not gonna be a huge game changer for AG.

 

Well part of the reason is that you can actually target stuff with enough precision at a distance. Currently you can do it with the TPOD but its questionable how realistic that is.

[Harlikwin]

Other then harpoon attacks Surface radar is almost never used IRL. The lpod is gonna be a better choice in pretty much every scenario. There’s no advantage to using the surface modes over what we already have in game now. EA or not withstanding.

 

It’s hardly the aircrafts heart and soul of ground pounding.

 

Aside from generating precise target coordinates at extended ranges. Which, well you mostly don't do, but if you need to do it the TPOD isn't the best tool for that job.

[Wizard_03]

Well part of the reason is that you can actually target stuff with enough precision at a distance. Currently you can do it with the TPOD but its questionable how realistic that is.

 

JTAC/FAC or pre-planned intelligence is gonna be the ideal method for obtaining that data IRL. In the DCS environment your right though, it should give you more precision at range then the Lpod. Which could be useful for our purposes

 

How? Hornet has no terrain data. Maybe it could use the LTD/R instead but I don't see how it could do it alone.

 

Same way you can do it with just the HUD right now.

[Saltat_cum_mortem]

It’s an interesting capability for sure. But as an active sensor it’s not always desirable in emcon situations, and the availability of Lpods make it somewhat moot anyway. The HMD dose not need surface radar for that either, It can use it but it’s not essential.

 

Don’t get me wrong I’m excited to see EDs implementation of it too, but it’s just not gonna be a huge game changer for AG.

I disagree. I think that, after release of the A/G radar, people will come to the conclusion that the T-pod is a waste of time in deep strike and maybe interdiction strike missions. Depending on the resolution of the radar (which I clearly don't fully understand at the moment), I think these missions will be dominated by the radar.

 

With the radar you can more easily refine your target designation and approach in spite of trees obstructing your view. This is especially true at low level.

 

Depending on resolution and filtering, I figure the same will be true about interdiction strike missions. But, again that depends on the operator's ability to recognize columns of vehicles. In fact, the radar may make finding the columns faster than panning around with the T-pod.

 

Having said all of that, the T-pod will always be the undisputed King of CAS due to the necessity of target discrimination via visual identification. But that doesn't degrade the usefulness of the radar in other aspects of ground attack.

 

All of that to say that the T-pod is useful and the A/G radar should be useful. But each in its place.

 

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk

[Wizard_03]

The only time I can see a benefit of using it over the Lpod for targeting is gonna be in a weather/smoke situation. The resolution of SAR is nowhere near an actual image of the target. You almost need to already know it’s location to be able to pick it out of a radar picture.

[Saltat_cum_mortem]

We'll see

 

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk

Edited August 8, 2019 by Saltat_cum_mortem

[Jak525]

Same way you can do it with just the HUD right now.

The way we do it with the HUD uses the AG radar. You can see the indication "AGR" displays which means the radar is using Air-to-Ground Ranging mode. Of course, this is a very preliminary and WIP implementation since the AG radar format isn't modeled yet or anything.

 

With only bearing information, it is simply impossible to make a 3 dimensional TGT designation.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Jak525

[Kev2go]

The only time I can see a benefit of using it over the Lpod for targeting is gonna be in a weather/smoke situation. The resolution of SAR is nowhere near an actual image of the target. You almost need to already know it’s location to be able to pick it out of a radar picture.

 

At least not with older radars.

 

 

I recall seeing a declassified report published from 1999 regarding AN/APY-8A ground mapping radar for the predator drone. Coupled with provided A/G radar images it had quoted a up to 0.1 meter resolution accuracy, a better resolution that what you would see from a strike eagles An/APG70, (both statistically, and noticeable visually)

 

With the advent of AESA radars A/G mapping resolution and using examples from well within the 21st century like the F35's AN/APG81, although exact stats unknown are even better A/G imaging than compared to the predator drone. Google some images, can easily detect, and zoom in to spot , track, and even target individual vehicles

Edited August 8, 2019 by Kev2go

[Harlikwin]

I disagree. I think that, after release of the A/G radar, people will come to the conclusion that the T-pod is a waste of time in deep strike and maybe interdiction strike missions. Depending on the resolution of the radar (which I clearly don't fully understand at the moment), I think these missions will be dominated by the radar.

 

With the radar you can more easily refine your target designation and approach in spite of trees obstructing your view. This is especially true at low level.

 

Depending on resolution and filtering, I figure the same will be true about interdiction strike missions. But, again that depends on the operator's ability to recognize columns of vehicles. In fact, the radar may make finding the columns faster than panning around with the T-pod.

 

Having said all of that, the T-pod will always be the undisputed King of CAS due to the necessity of target discrimination via visual identification. But that doesn't degrade the usefulness of the radar in other aspects of ground attack.

 

All of that to say that the T-pod is useful and the A/G radar should be useful. But each in its place.

 

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk

 

Stop talking sense... :thumbup:

[Harlikwin]

The only time I can see a benefit of using it over the Lpod for targeting is gonna be in a weather/smoke situation. The resolution of SAR is nowhere near an actual image of the target. You almost need to already know it’s location to be able to pick it out of a radar picture.

 

Smoke eh... Real thermals, unlike DCS thermals see through that... Also weather to some extent...

[Kev2go]

Smoke eh... Real thermals, unlike DCS thermals see through that... Also weather to some extent...

 

regular smoke yes.

 

 

But modern 21st century vehicles have already been employing IR obscurant smoke. I cant recall what they chemicals they add to make this possible, but it basically makes thermal see "black smoke" and thus obscuring them from target even with IR imaging.

 

That being said even regular smoke screen can be enough to disrupt lasers, so even if you can see them, IRl a pilot would be prevented from utilizing laser guided muntions on them.

[maxTRX]

It’s an interesting capability for sure. But as an active sensor it’s not always desirable in emcon situations, and the availability of Lpods make it somewhat moot anyway. The HMD dose not need surface radar for that either, It can use it but it’s not essential.

 

Don’t get me wrong I’m excited to see EDs implementation of it too, but it’s just not gonna be a huge game changer for AG.

 

There is this one little feature that minimizes your active radar time. "Freeze" function (I'm sure Hornets have that). Take a sweep of an area in "EXP1, 2 or 3" from a fairly long distance with targets painted. Freeze it, the emissions are off. The slice of the terrain with tgt. in will update from INS. You can drop in the weeds, lock the tgt. and pop for an update if you have to.

 

There are lots of benefits the ground radar can bring to the table, most have been mentioned already in this thread.

[Nealius]

I can see A/G radar being useful when employing Mavs without a TPOD, though that's more of a historical thing with Vipers in ODS than an early 2000s thing with Hornets. My understanding was that the A2G radar in the Hornet would help the development of the Viper, but we already have the Viper on pre-order without yet having the A2G radar in the Hornet.