R-27R guiding like Fox 3

[Banzaiib]

[Shimmergloom667]

That is an F-18 bug how?

[BIGNEWY]

Hi please provide a track and description of what you think is the bug.

 

Thread moved.

[Kid18120]

Isn't the R27-R a semi-active radar guidance missile? It's supposed to guide "as a fox-3"

Also, why is this in the A10C forum?

[FoxAlfa]

Isn't the R27-R a semi-active radar guidance missile? It's supposed to guide "as a fox-3"

Also, why is this in the A10C forum?

 

The R-27r is a SARH missile AKA Fox 1... it should drop the guidance as soon as the MiG-29 turned and stopped supporting it.

I think it is a AI issue since player guided missiles don't behave this way or it could be a de-sync issue... anyway I hope ED up's the priority on the R-27 family update since it really starting to show and needless trigger people.

[Schmidtfire]

That’s because R-27 is the primary missile for everyone flying Flankers and Fulcrums. Not to mention AI redfor. It is an essential weapon that is often used in game. Update of R-27 family should be a top priority.

[Ironhand]

 

:) Finally! An improvement to the R-27R family!

[Banzaiib]

Hi please provide a track and description of what you think is the bug.

 

Thread moved.

 

The bug is quite simple, the R-27R guides without radar lock, as seen in the video above. The Mig-29 is heading away from the F-18 and the missle is still tracking... fairly obvious. I'm not sure how a track would help, but I'll try to get one. It was recorded on OB patch yesterday in a MP mission. I'll try to get a track tonight.

[skywalker22]

 

Was Mig29A an AI, or human?

How about on other Migs, and Sukhois? I only fly Su-27, but only extended versions of R-27, so ER and ET. ER seems fine, it acts as it should.

Edited September 9, 2019 by mitja_bonca

[nighthawk2174]

LOL I love seeing how this bug pops up every other update but on the 27 that's new XD

[Coxy_99]

I thought it kept tracking for a very short while even if is lock was broken anyway something like 4 seconds?

[Banzaiib]

I thought it kept tracking for a very short while even if is lock was broken anyway something like 4 seconds?

 

How? Without concentrated radar energy bouncing off the target, there should be nothing for the missile seeker to see... so it should stop guiding immediately.

[Banzaiib]

Was Mig29A an AI, or human?

How about on other Migs, and Sukhois? I only fly Su-27, but only extended versions of R-27, so ER and ET. ER seems fine, it acts as it should.

 

those are all great questions. I'm at work. you should do some testing yourself and post back in this thread. I just raised the flag beacuse I clearly saw R-27's guiding without the launching aircraft maintaining lock.

[Ironhand]

Was Mig29A an AI, or human?

...

Based on what's shown in the TacView, human driven MiG-29A. I've never seen the AI behave like that. I've never had that happen in SP, so I'd guess it was online as well.

 

 

I thought it kept tracking for a very short while even if is lock was broken anyway something like 4 seconds?

3 seconds and it's not the missile guiding for those three seconds. It's the radar track projecting where the target is for 3 seconds after the lock is broken. That's the meaning of the flashing "lock" symbol on the HUD.

[FoxAlfa]

I thought it kept tracking for a very short while even if is lock was broken anyway something like 4 seconds?

 

Technically it means it can reacquire target if the lock is lost... but it still needs a re-lock with mother-ship radar (although there are some discussions on this point too).

 

The second case it could be it continues ballistic and takes down non-maneuver target due to proxy fuse, but nether here seams to be the case since the misslie is clearly maneuvering.

 

For what I can tell a bug due to de-sync or AI in MP. Looks like a MP with AI plane shooting the player, but I could be wrong... I never got a kill like that on the Blue Flag for sure, missile always drops...

[discwalker]

Me too awarded hit with R-27ER in J-11A to Hornet in "fox 3" mode yesterday on 104th server

[Banzaiib]

Technically it means it can reacquire target if the lock is lost... but it still needs a re-lock with mother-ship radar (although there are some discussions on this point too).

 

The second case it could be it continues ballistic and takes down non-maneuver target due to proxy fuse, but nether here seams to be the case since the misslie is clearly maneuvering.

 

For what I can tell a bug due to de-sync or AI in MP. Looks like a MP with AI plane shooting the player, but I could be wrong... I never got a kill like that on the Blue Flag for sure, missile always drops...

 

That's correct. It was AI firing at a player in a dedicated MP server. The MP AI behavior is much improved after the last patch, but fighting magical fox 3's isn't fun... especially when it took you a bunch of time to set up the interaction (startup, patrolling, and all the other logistics of organizing 40 people into a big ole mission)...

[Fri13]

How? Without concentrated radar energy bouncing off the target, there should be nothing for the missile seeker to see... so it should stop guiding immediately.

 

It does stop receiving the information of target location, unless it is jamming (jammers can be set to operate the exact same frequency as the radar and include all the same, acting like a beacon), but even then the missile doesn't go ballistic.

 

All the time the missile when it is receiving information of the target location, it is building a track for it, so it knows where the target is to go in the next X seconds.

 

The missile is not flying to the target, it is flying where it is. It knows where it isn't, and where it must be.

 

 

What the missile basically needs to know, is where it must be at the given time. Nothing else.

The missile doesn't kill the target because it knows where the target is, it kills the target by being where the target is.

 

What causes the missile to kill the target is not the guiding radar, it is the missile own proximity fuze. All that is required is that the missile is somewhere <=10 meters from the target so that proximity fuze can detect the target and trigger explosion.

 

Nothing else really matters than get the missile in proximity of the target and it will blow itself up and damage the target.

The problem is always to get the missile to proximity of the target, not the how to know where the target is.

 

And if you feed the target enough information of the last known position, heading and velocity, the missile can build the track how the target is moving and continue maneuvering by that track, regardless it has lost the target updates.

Edited September 10, 2019 by BIGNEWY
fixed youtube

[Kid18120]

The R-27r is a SARH missile AKA Fox 1... it should drop the guidance as soon as the MiG-29 turned and stopped supporting it.

I think it is a AI issue since player guided missiles don't behave this way or it could be a de-sync issue... anyway I hope ED up's the priority on the R-27 family update since it really starting to show and needless trigger people.

 

Yeah sorry i mixed up Fox1 and Fox3 :doh:

[Ironhand]

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What a hilarious video! Thanks for sharing.

[BIGNEWY]

If someone can give me a short track showing this behaviour I will look into it.

[Ironhand]

Have been unable to replicate in SP. May just be an MP problem.

[Snapper]

Thought about creating a new topic but because it is about the same topic I will use that one. We did a training against Mig29s armed with semi actives. The distance was about 30 nm at the beginning and the Mig fired between 16-20 nm. I turned away and broke the lock, clean scope.

A couple of second later I got another launch indication, turned away and broke the lock again.

 

When I take a look with tacview the second launch indication was no missile launch. It seems that the Mig locked me again. Why do I get a launch indication at that point? Is it possible for the Mig to guide the same missile again by relocking me after she lost the lock? If yes, are we talking about real behavior or is it a bug which is known for years now?

[BlackPixxel]

R-27R/ER can have breaks in target irradiation, and some documents about MiG-29 make it seem that the illumination is kept on until the missile runs out of battery (60 s).

 

There are manuals saying that even in scan mode the missile can guide to the target after the STT lock was lost.

[Snapper]

Ok that is a cool feature but why do I get launch indications without launch? It was a 1vs1 so there were no other planes he could have shoot at. I know that the RWR isn’t that accurate sometimes but I thought I get a launch indication because the radar frequency is changing when he launches at me.