GGTharos Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I have been told that it is better to have over-modeled missiles than crap missiles if you wish for realistic tactics to be employed. And you're correct, none of the modeling for missiles in LO is really realistic. There's always -something- missing. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
UWBuRn Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Sorry Pilotasso, i've red only now your post. In my vid "spamming" was just made to show that it's not the case of one missile on ten but is a SURE thing. And for one missile you don't need many chaff. Plus, i never spam my missiles untill i need to (read when i see that the previous missile has been trashed). As for other factors affecting SARHs effectiveness i agree with you BUT making a proper evasive maneuver like beaming require different skills than hitting the chaff button and in general it's harder. That would also mean that if you're in the NEZ, you will have little chance of surviving, and in long BVR you will have to take some initiative to face the threat.
RvETito Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Well, I'll add a few lines to support my squadmates. Yoda and VooDoo has made a great demonstration of major flaws in LO's code. That ruins BVR combat A LOT. No one pays respect both to own and enemy missiles. That's a reason why I started flying A2G pretty much in the last couple of months, even more than RvE's trade mark- guns only dogfight. As being said- we love LO and we don't mind stick with it untill a new generation flighter flight sim is available. But it looks like the BVR area is a read book already, I personally find useless BVR except for LOCERF and squadmatches like the one we did with the 504 last night. 1.13 patch adressing all that is a must for keeping LO's BVR alive until something new comes out in the fighter area- Fighter Ops or eventual fighter DCS module. Fingers crossed... "See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89. =RvE=
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 About Etipioan-Eritrean war info are contradictory: some source reportes more than one kill with R-27R, IIRC seven, most of them using two R-27R. But i agree, nothing sure about that. Whats 100% sure is that a mistery missile made a Mig-29 come back to base with a limp but it was written off anyway as it was not repaired (unneconomical repair?). It hapened after an intitial salvo of R-27's. This led many to speculate on whatever missile hit it, but there was never confirmation. It could have been indeed an R-27 or another R-73. .
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Sorry Pilotasso, i've red only now your post. In my vid "spamming" was just made to show that it's not the case of one missile on ten but is a SURE thing. And for one missile you don't need many chaff. Plus, i never spam my missiles untill i need to (read when i see that the previous missile has been trashed). As for other factors affecting SARHs effectiveness i agree with you BUT making a proper evasive maneuver like beaming require different skills than hitting the chaff button and in general it's harder. That would also mean that if you're in the NEZ, you will have little chance of surviving, and in long BVR you will have to take some initiative to face the threat. That post of mine was not adressed at you but for all audiences so that they will not fall for the idea that chaff alone is the answer. Fixing it will only alter habits without changing R-27 PK too much. Its needed a broader ranges of fixes, and then dont expect but a rather small improvement of PK except when you use surprise, wich most dont do. .
RvEYoda Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 im thinking a bit like tito, gonna go a2g for a while. At least there the aircraft themselves dont allow for this stuff.....well....if we ignore the low flying ;) S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse'
IvanK Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I fail see the relevance of the Ethiopian-Eritrean conflict. Neither of these states have/had the ability to maintain a complex weapon system in the field let alone employ them to their max advantage. An assessment made by the Luftwaffe post unification is a much better basis to comment on the average Russian missile and its effectivness.
monotwix Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 I've just done a similar test, and so I flew at 6000m strait in the direction of the bandit and got shot 3 times so than I dove slightly and recorded tacview for analising missiles and what the SAR missiles might see and do, a cloud of silver strips would be visible to them as illustrated below: I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully.
Pilotasso Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Ivan you would be right if it wasnt for the fact that those migs and flankers were not actualy completely owned and operated by those countries alone. There were Russian and Ukranian Pilots, maintainers and fighters out there. Its kinda surreal if you think of it. Russia VS Ukraine in a small sandbox of circunstances. .
IvanK Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Pilotasso is there a copy of this data/report somewhere on the net ? Its an interesting subject. An acquaintance of mine was a USN F14 RIO who had a stint with the Iranian Air Force supporting them with the F14 introduction. Even with US assistance he didn't think much of the Iranians ability to employ their sanitised AWG9 and AIM54 capability.
RedTiger Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 I fail see the relevance of the Ethiopian-Eritrean conflict. Neither of these states have/had the ability to maintain a complex weapon system in the field let alone employ them to their max advantage. An assessment made by the Luftwaffe post unification is a much better basis to comment on the average Russian missile and its effectivness. I'd go one further and just say "If you didn't shoot at it or get shot at by it over the Soviet Union, you will never know for sure". There's so much crap out there from third world countries that people try to equate to the USSR. I mean, its Ethiopia for God's sake! Ethiopia!! But the flip side is that if someone had undeniable evidence that the real missiles and radar were crap, it wouldn't surprise me. I like Russian planes and all, but I'm also realistic. @GG I agree about the missile modeling. If you make missiles crappy then people will never learn the right way to do it.
GGTharos Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Someone does have undeniable evidence that the real missiles and radar are crap. Comparatively speaking. All that means is that you need to shoot more of one kind to match that magical Pk number of the other kind, nothing more and nothing less, really. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
RedTiger Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Someone does have undeniable evidence that the real missiles and radar are crap. Comparatively speaking. All that means is that you need to shoot more of one kind to match that magical Pk number of the other kind, nothing more and nothing less, really. Yeah, but how many is key, isn't it? You said 1 to 20 hit to miss ratio. These planes don't carry 20 missiles. :D
GGTharos Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Yeah, I don't believe the R-27's were in fact THAT bad. I think there were mitigating factors ... I mean that's worse than vietnam's Sparrows and I just don't buy that ;) I know that it was Russian doctrine to spam those 27's ... for reasons ranging from Pk to asymmetric loading to merging without 2 metric tonnes of non-dogfighting missile. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
504Goon Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 2 metric tonnes of non-dogfighting missile. Hey, the ER is the best dogfighting missile there is!! :D 504th CO http://www.vvs504.co.uk
GGTharos Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 ... when you drop it on someone's plane while in formation! :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
monotwix Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 ... when you drop it on someone's plane while in formation! :D Yeh sim is fun, but what would be more fun in my opinion, is believing that reading this worthwhile.:music_walkman: I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully.
RvEYoda Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Hey in lockon you can eject into someone and both will die. Fusion and AS tried it, and AS got splashed :) S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse'
Frostie Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Last resort; Fox 5.:D "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
RvEYoda Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Last resort; Fox 5.:D whats that? S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse'
Kuky Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Boomerang :D PC specs: Windows 11 Home | Asus TUF Gaming B850-Plus WiFi | AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D + LC 360 AIO | MSI RTX 5090 LC 360 AIO | 55" Samsung Odyssey Gen 2 | 64GB PC5-48000 DDR5 | 1TB M2 SSD for OS | 2TB M2 SSD for DCS | NZXT C1000 Gold ATX 3.1 1000W | TM Cougar Throttle, Floor Mounted MongoosT-50 Grip on TM Cougar board, MFG Crosswind, Track IR
RvEYoda Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 ? whats that? S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse'
Kuky Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Fox 5 Boomerang ;) hehehe, seriously though, I am not quite sure... I think it's launching AR from very high altitude so that missile comes on target's 6 but I am not sure... couple of our 3Sqn guys came up with it, maybe they have more "info" on a Fox 5 :D PC specs: Windows 11 Home | Asus TUF Gaming B850-Plus WiFi | AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D + LC 360 AIO | MSI RTX 5090 LC 360 AIO | 55" Samsung Odyssey Gen 2 | 64GB PC5-48000 DDR5 | 1TB M2 SSD for OS | 2TB M2 SSD for DCS | NZXT C1000 Gold ATX 3.1 1000W | TM Cougar Throttle, Floor Mounted MongoosT-50 Grip on TM Cougar board, MFG Crosswind, Track IR
RvEYoda Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Normally you would give the missile a loft angle to increase its range(doesn't work properly in lomac), but i never heard about a boomberang :) Both would be fun to see implemented in lockon/DCS at some point, it should be fairly simple. S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse'
classified Posted January 8, 2008 Posted January 8, 2008 Classified chat concerning [=RvE= Exploits video] from undisclossed location > 12:34:17: respect > 12:34:17: cool cool > 12:34:23: yea rgr that > 12:34:37: yea i see it now > 12:35:36: its funny though, because to pull those maneuvers off in combat is totally different story than doing it with a clean f15 with lables > 12:35:54: i bet one would be dead before he could even try them > 12:35:55: ahh the movie > 12:36:05: it is easy, when you're 1 on 1, and see labels > 12:36:11: yea > 12:36:20: did same shit in flanker 1.0 > 12:36:41: also notice in external > 12:36:45: well the barrel rolls work, i use them all the time in a merge > 12:36:47: but > 12:36:51: i still get hit > 12:37:00: if i dont execute them exactly right > 12:37:14: also the inverted orthagnol roll > 12:37:18: also notice that in external view > 12:37:21: that is usefull 2 > 12:37:27: he is pulling 9-8 G for very long time > 12:37:30: you would black out > 12:37:31: totally > 12:37:38: and then > 12:37:40: pwned > 12:37:42: 10sec later > 12:37:46: yes thats prolly with no gs at all > 12:37:50: exactly > 12:37:58: even with reduced gs u wouldnt see shit > 12:38:04: you know how long it takes to recover from g lock > 12:38:05: u would be completely tumbleweed > 12:38:12: you are totally useless ten > 12:38:19: yep > 12:38:21: cant defend yourself, nor your squadmates > 12:38:34: nobody actually commented on this > 12:38:46: yes > 12:38:49: all the nubs > 12:38:52: will be like: > 12:38:55: "OH THATS WHY... > 12:39:00: ...i always get pwned" > 12:38:57: it was first thing i actuall watched, what the G is > 12:38:59: and for how long > 12:39:06: ****ING RETARDS!! > 12:39:17: omg > 12:39:22: check again, circus > 12:40:34: Kula: I've kinda given up on LO online for now - just too frustrating. There is no fun in screaming at your monitor - too many exploits/cheats/bugs. > 12:40:41: Nub #! > 12:40:52: #1 > 12:40:59: I don't care > 12:41:02: Poko: Yupp, it is frustrating and make no sense flying online since you have known these tricks or when you're a noob flying against some squadron members whose know this as well. > 12:41:07: Nub #2 > 12:41:33: Crazy Eyes: Yoda I totally agree with you these exploits really kill the playability of lomac especially in A2A > 12:41:36: Nub#3 > 12:41:45: I mean these ppl are just looking for an exuse > 12:41:54: because they get pwned again and again > 12:41:54: that is correct > 12:42:19: lol > 12:42:22: funny thing
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