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VIPER ILS LANDING QUESTION


flankerjun
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hello everyone,i am learning landing with ILS,but I can't get the command steering like wags' video,only a small circle in the middle of the HUD.

I need help about the reason. thanks

 

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Edited by flankerjun

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Only one small circle?

 

Sounds like you are not in the ILS cone.

Think of it as a cone, extending from the Runway and you need to be inside it to get all of the circles.

 

Maybe try it in good weather, activate ILS and fly a visual approach this way you should see everything. If not then you missed something.

You have to setup correct frequency, Direction and you have to activate with the Button in the HSI.

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Only one small circle?

 

Sounds like you are not in the ILS cone.

Think of it as a cone, extending from the Runway and you need to be inside it to get all of the circles.

 

Maybe try it in good weather, activate ILS and fly a visual approach this way you should see everything. If not then you missed something.

You have to setup correct frequency, Direction and you have to activate with the Button in the HSI.

 

I have the flightpath maker, localozer and glideslope bars,command steering on HUD,but the command steering in manual and wags' video is a small circle with a vertical line,but my HUD ,olny the small circle.

 

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From manual (not dcs one): The tic mark appears on the flight director circle when glide slope deviation nears center, indicating that pitch steering data is valid

 

ILS probably WIP as i haven't seen command steering circle ordering turns to intercept localiser course for example whereas i was within 45 degrees deviation


Edited by Steph21
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The command steering cue will be only a lateral steering circle until you're within the vertical steering region. Basically you're supposed to be level below glide slope say at a 30 degree intercept. Steering cue will direct you in the level plane to perform a lateral intercept onto localizer while still below glideslope center. You will only see the circle without vertical line positioned on the horizon line.

 

Only when you're at center of glideslope will the steering cue transition to include vertical guidance and introduce the vertical line on top of the circle. If guidance becomes invalid (leaving the HUD, too far from GS center) the cue will have an 'x' drawn over it.

 

My guess is that you've never intercepted the glideslope by being too high-too close. The 3° GS means that you need to be less than 3184' AAL at 10nm to do a proper vertical interception from below. Try it again but fly level at 2000' established on the centerline at least 10nm distant. You should see the steering cue act normally as the GS needle reaches center.

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The 3° GS means that you need to be less than 3184' AAL at 10nm to do a proper vertical interception from below.

 

Really handy tip for those that don't know it: a quick way to work this out (approximately) is take your distance from the airfield in nm and multiply by 300 to get the altitude you need to be at in order to be on glideslope. The altitude is, of course, QFE which is the setting you get when you call inbound. So at 10nm DME you should be (roughly) 3000ft QFE, at 4nm DME you should roughly be 1200ft QFE. Really helpful if you need to do a non-precision approach (i.e. without ILS).

 

Similar tricks for descending from altitude to the airfield: for a 5 degree descent take your altitude in 1000s of feet and multiply it by 2 to get the nm you should start your descent from. So if you are at 20,000ft start your descent at 40nm for a 5 degree angle. For a 10 degree angle take your altitude in 1000s of feet and that is the distance to start: so at 30,000ft start your descent 30nm out with a 10 degree angle. Most planes struggle to descend at more than 10 degrees without gaining airspeed, even with the airbrake out.


Edited by Tomsk
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Steering cue will direct you in the level plane to perform a lateral intercept onto localizer.

 

Is it implemented yet ? Have done some quick testing but steering cue didn't direct me to perform lateral intercept with 30° bank turn despite being within 45° deviation of localizer course.

 

I thought it was not implemented yet, but i might have done something wrong.

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Maybe unrelated, but are you actually hearing the sound from the ILS station? I had the problem in instant action mission for PG Landing, the ILS station has two frequencys for both runway sides, the one, that should be active runway by wind, was not working for me. The other one worked as expected, so double check that.

 

 

edit: Disregard, just read your post #3 and doesn't sound like it at all.

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Is it implemented yet ? Have done some quick testing but steering cue didn't direct me to perform lateral intercept with 30° bank turn despite being within 45° deviation of localizer course.

 

I thought it was not implemented yet, but i might have done something wrong.

 

Yes, when approaching Batumi with course 119 entered the lateral cue directed me to intercept on heading 164 (45 degree) from left lobe and 074 from right lobe. The cue is a roll director. Roll the airplane until the cue is within the FPM (or at least centered laterally). Do not be inexact in this alignment, roll to make the two circles concentric. Do not think of the cue as something to chase with the FPM. This accomplishes, at normal approach speeds, a reasonable first and second turn.

 

Make sure to enter the correct ILS course into the T-ILS page as this is needed for the pre-localizer intercept steering. When in the signal mixing zone this course should be irrelevant and signal rates are used instead.

 

This will also be easier when the "V" heading caret is added to the heading tape and will amplify the lateral intercept steering and expected crosswind heading correction.

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Yes, when approaching Batumi with course 119 entered the lateral cue directed me to intercept on heading 164 (45 degree) from left lobe and 074 from right lobe. The cue is a roll director. Roll the airplane until the cue is within the FPM (or at least centered laterally). Do not be inexact in this alignment, roll to make the two circles concentric. Do not think of the cue as something to chase with the FPM. This accomplishes, at normal approach speeds, a reasonable first and second turn.

 

Make sure to enter the correct ILS course into the T-ILS page as this is needed for the pre-localizer intercept steering. When in the signal mixing zone this course should be irrelevant and signal rates are used instead.

 

This will also be easier when the "V" heading caret is added to the heading tape and will amplify the lateral intercept steering and expected crosswind heading correction.

 

Ok thx, when i tried i had entered the course on the ehsi.... Will try with t-ils ded page.

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Really handy tip for those that don't know it: a quick way to work this out (approximately) is take your distance from the airfield in nm and multiply by 300 to get the altitude you need to be at in order to be on glideslope. The altitude is, of course, QFE which is the setting you get when you call inbound. So at 10nm DME you should be (roughly) 3000ft QFE, at 4nm DME you should roughly be 1200ft QFE. Really helpful if you need to do a non-precision approach (i.e. without ILS).

 

Similar tricks for descending from altitude to the airfield: for a 5 degree descent take your altitude in 1000s of feet and multiply it by 2 to get the nm you should start your descent from. So if you are at 20,000ft start your descent at 40nm for a 5 degree angle. For a 10 degree angle take your altitude in 1000s of feet and that is the distance to start: so at 30,000ft start your descent 30nm out with a 10 degree angle. Most planes struggle to descend at more than 10 degrees without gaining airspeed, even with the airbrake out.

 

Very useful info right there. Thanks for sharing.

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The command steering cue will be only a lateral steering circle until you're within the vertical steering region. Basically you're supposed to be level below glide slope say at a 30 degree intercept. Steering cue will direct you in the level plane to perform a lateral intercept onto localizer while still below glideslope center. You will only see the circle without vertical line positioned on the horizon line.

 

Only when you're at center of glideslope will the steering cue transition to include vertical guidance and introduce the vertical line on top of the circle. If guidance becomes invalid (leaving the HUD, too far from GS center) the cue will have an 'x' drawn over it.

 

My guess is that you've never intercepted the glideslope by being too high-too close. The 3° GS means that you need to be less than 3184' AAL at 10nm to do a proper vertical interception from below. Try it again but fly level at 2000' established on the centerline at least 10nm distant. You should see the steering cue act normally as the GS needle reaches center.

 

THANKS A LOT,I will try it later, one more question ,if I want to land on an airport without TCAN,only ILS,how can i know my distance from the airport? most airport in caucasus or the Persian Gulf have ILS but without TCAN.

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THANKS A LOT,I will try it later, one more question ,if I want to land on an airport without TCAN,only ILS,how can i know my distance from the airport? most airport in caucasus or the Persian Gulf have ILS but without TCAN.

 

For the time being (till SP add via ICP is a thing) just edit a current steerpoint with the airfields co-ordinates on the ICP using STPT page and distance it that way - EHSI set to PLS/NAV mode with M button..


Edited by VampireNZ

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THANKS A LOT,I will try it later, one more question ,if I want to land on an airport without TCAN,only ILS,how can i know my distance from the airport? most airport in caucasus or the Persian Gulf have ILS but without TCAN.

 

Suddenly you get into the legality of approved instrument approaches. There's a difference between what will work and what's approved officially. If you want to fly only approved approach procedures then legally you're limited to what is published and requires equipment your airplane has.

 

But in terms of what will work practically, that's exactly the situation NAV/PLS is designed for.

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Suddenly you get into the legality of approved instrument approaches. There's a difference between what will work and what's approved officially. If you want to fly only approved approach procedures then legally you're limited to what is published and requires equipment your airplane has.

 

But in terms of what will work practically, that's exactly the situation NAV/PLS is designed for.

 

THANKS, I used to fly DCS hornet for a long time,you know that Honet has no ILS(EXCEPT FOR CARRIER),mostly I land with TACAN,VFR, so I want to try VIPER's ILS,to see what it looks like.

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Yes, when approaching Batumi with course 119 entered the lateral cue directed me to intercept on heading 164 (45 degree) from left lobe and 074 from right lobe. The cue is a roll director. Roll the airplane until the cue is within the FPM (or at least centered laterally). Do not be inexact in this alignment, roll to make the two circles concentric. Do not think of the cue as something to chase with the FPM. This accomplishes, at normal approach speeds, a reasonable first and second turn.

 

Make sure to enter the correct ILS course into the T-ILS page as this is needed for the pre-localizer intercept steering. When in the signal mixing zone this course should be irrelevant and signal rates are used instead.

 

This will also be easier when the "V" heading caret is added to the heading tape and will amplify the lateral intercept steering and expected crosswind heading correction.

 

Tried again yesterday entering the course in T-ILS page, and indeed Comand Steering Symbol directed me on 45° intercept heading. But then, it should again command a 2nd 30° bank turn to intercept localiser course when within 2 dot deviation. This didn't happened until i crossed the localizer course (so way too late for a 30° bank turn).

 

Anyone had 2 commanded turn from the CMD STRG symbol ? One toward intercept course and a 2nd one toward localizer course ?

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Yeah I have. It's not too obvious when the cues separate directing another banked turn. You have to look for it. Maximum deflection of the steering cue is only about 1.5 dots against the HUD scale. If you don't fly well aligned it's easy to miss the small shift.

 

One issue is that in DCS the steering cue doesn't come alive for the second turn until 1 dot (instead of 2 dots) and doesn't command "up to" 30 degrees of bank but 30 degrees of bank seem to be required every time even at long distances. Obviously these are related. However at my 13.8 TCN DME 45 intercept at ~200 knots using 30 degrees of bank when indicated I did not overshoot.

 

With a change to initiating the turn at 2 dots (and not 1) and some tuning of the steering regarding not only lateral error but lateral error time derivative the intercept steering should be smoother (not as prone to snaking back and forth in heading). Recommend that you begin maneuvering when inside 2 dots and transition to the steering cue when inside 1 dot until it's fixed.

 

Quick math: Assuming a 200 knot final turn, let's see what distance away is needed to accomplish a 30 degree bank turn for lateral room required. Radius of turn 6153'. Because it's the latter 45 degrees we only need 30% of that lateral room or 1846'. This lateral is had at 2 dots and 1 dot at 7 and 13.9nm from antenna. Tack on another nm because the antenna is 1000' beyond the runway while TACAN is probably midfield. It's clear that not having steering at full scale deflection dramatically increases the need for distance or bank angle.


Edited by Frederf
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Yeah I have. It's not too obvious when the cues separate directing another banked turn. You have to look for it. Maximum deflection of the steering cue is only about 1.5 dots against the HUD scale. If you don't fly well aligned it's easy to miss the small shift.

 

One issue is that in DCS the steering cue doesn't come alive for the second turn until 1 dot (instead of 2 dots) and doesn't command "up to" 30 degrees of bank but 30 degrees of bank seem to be required every time even at long distances. However at my 13.8 TCN DME 45 intercept at ~200 knots using 30 degrees of bank when indicated I did not overshoot.

 

With a change to initiating the turn at 2 dots (and not 1) and some tuning of the steering regarding not only lateral error but lateral error time derivative the intercept steering should be smoother (not as prone to snaking back and forth in heading).

 

Ok thanks, i was doing my approach more around 250-270 knots and 30° AOB, will try to lower the speed then to see if it's easier to catch the 2nd turn command

Thanks for the feedback anyway :thumbup:

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Sorry for the stupid question here, but how do you turn on ILS? When doing cold starts, mine is off.

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There are no stupid questions ( almost )

 

Well next to the trottle there are a tiny dial saying ILS ( south of the radio )

If that is set to 0 then its off.. so turn up the "volume" a little bit ( example 5-10% or so ) and you should see that the ILS somewhere in the small digital display will turn on... AND also remember there is a button to the right of your ass that you need to turn..

( and to use ils look a the small display inbetween your legs and press the tiny button and you should see the ils needles after a few clicks.

And ofcourse tune setup your radio/tacan and course

 

pro tip..: if your tacan is not working, then often people forget on the tacan page to set tacan to T/R or A/A since as default it just say REC.


Edited by delevero
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Sorry for the stupid question here, but how do you turn on ILS? When doing cold starts, mine is off.

 

Turn on MDS LVD (lowest switch on RHS of Right Console), enter T-ILS onto ICP to display on DED, nudge down until ILS freq is highlighted and enter frequency to two decimal places followed by enter, nudge down to chose and enter the course followed by enter, set EHSI to PLS/Tacan, as mentioned ensure ILS volume is not off and check on the DED that ILS is ON.

After that get yourself somewhere near 10Nm from the runway at about 2500-3000 ft AGL to be somewhere near the glide scope.

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...also remember there is a button to the right of your ass that you need to turn...

Thanks for your reply. I think the volume dial was the culprit. I always turn the ILS & TCN volumes down. Didn't realize turning the ILS volume all the way down turns it off. Also, can you be a little bit more specific on the button you're speaking of?

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Turn on MDS LVD (lowest switch on RHS of Right Console), enter T-ILS onto ICP to display on DED, nudge down until ILS freq is highlighted and enter frequency to two decimal places followed by enter, nudge down to chose and enter the course followed by enter, set EHSI to PLS/Tacan, as mentioned ensure ILS volume is not off and check on the DED that ILS is ON.

After that get yourself somewhere near 10Nm from the runway at about 2500-3000 ft AGL to be somewhere near the glide scope.

Yeah, I do all of this except having the volume up. I turn it all the way down. I think that's my issue. Thanks ALL!

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Thanks for your reply. I think the volume dial was the culprit. I always turn the ILS & TCN volumes down. Didn't realize turning the ILS volume all the way down turns it off. Also, can you be a little bit more specific on the button you're speaking of?

 

He means the MDS/LVD switch which powers on the Tacan system I believe.

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