Changing target in TWS RAID?

[Bankler]

When engaging multiple target, I've found it useful to just go 1) undesignate, 2) fire, 3) repeat until each of my targets has a 120 coming at them.

 

If my targets are in a tight formation, I guess it makes sense to use the RAID function to zoom in. However, if I press undesignate when in RAID (expecting the target to cycle), it doesn't cycle target, but instead exits RAID.

 

1) Is this correct? I haven't studied any sources, so it's just pure speculation, but to me it doesn't seem that logical, as you can already enter and exit RAID with the HOTAS (RAID / FLIR FOV button), so why would undesignate suddenly change functionality?

 

2) Is there another way to (rapidly) cycle targets in RAID, that I've just overlooked?

 

Note: I tried the same thing in EXP. In that mode, cycling with undesignate works, but it also allows the target to change to something that's not on the zoomed in screen.

[MacEwan]

I think I just saw this talked about in another thread a few days ago and it was said this this is not correct behavior, but I cant find the thread now so I'm not sure.

 

My opinion is that it shouldn't exit RAID when cycling targets but that's just an opinion, I have no facts to back that up. Hopefully someone with some knowledge on the subject can clarify.

[maxTRX]

From the info I have yes, you should be able to change L&S with the pinky. To exit RAID, you would either hit the RAID button again, Reset OSB, the range drops below 5nm. I think there's one or two other conditions that would return display to TWS.

I would have to test it again but I think I was able to switch L&S with TDC (in current build)

 

Beamscanner seems to be a good reference for anything radar related. He might chime in.

[Zyll]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between EXP and RAID modes. Could someone explain it?

[Jak525]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between EXP and RAID modes. Could someone explain it?

EXP - zoom in on screen

RAID - zooms in on screen, does a fine 22° scan on L&S to do "raid assessment" - attempts to break apart trackfile into multiple trackfiles for targets very close together and picked up as one by the radar.

[Zyll]

And assuming that you have the scan looking in the direction of the targets before hitting EXP or raid, does this mean that the expanded view of the zoomed in targets is fully covered by the radar sweep? Because it appears you still have 20/40/60/80 degree sweep when in these modes, but that's makes no sense because you are supposed to be zoomed in. Hope I'm making sense.

[falcon_120]

EXP and RAID modes are different in RL but that is not currently well simulated in DCS so basically they are more or less the same thing, a zoom function over an specific area.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

I'm not sure I understand the difference between EXP and RAID modes. Could someone explain it?

 

If say there is a 2-ship in tight formation, the radar might show a single contact. RAID does some high res scan so that the single contact starts to show correctly as 2 contacts. EXP doesn't do anything except zoom in to whatever you are currently seeing. But in DCS, both RAID and EXP are modeled simply as a zoom in. That's how I understand it. Have a look here also... (https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/F/A-18C#EXP_Mode)

[Zyll]

That link and explanation was very helpful, thanks guys

[Bankler]

ED can you please shed some light over this? Should I report it as a big, or is it intentional that you can’t switch targets in raid?

[Frederf]

RAID isn't a true target distinction. Instead it is a signal analysis that attempts to count sub elements of a return. The contact is still a single object with only one set of position and velocity values but the is some feature of the return that suggest "multiple ness ".

 

 

It's sort of like pointing a telescope at a binary star. It's only one dot of light (you don't have the resolution to see two dots) but there's some flicker or buzz or resonance or spectrum or some quality that says it's a double object. Any display that suggests the array contact has been resolved in positional space is usually completely artificial. The modified display is to show number and to handle targeting of the subcontacts in terms of human machine interface.

 

 

 

The AIM-120 can be fired with pretence to seek distinct subcontracts based on RAID ID. In this way it's possible to fire two missiles at this RAID contact with a good chance they will sort out things on arrival. Again it's like shooting two missiles into deep space against a single dot binary star with instructions of each missile to kill the red or the blue one. Only when much closer will the missiles be able to resolve the one target as two distinct objects and correlate their RAID assignment with the particular target object.

 

 

Assuming the Hornet can fire RAID sorted missiles at an array it must have some way of sub targeting. It might be entirely automatic. It might not be possible any way to fire on an array with any intelligence. Fire four 120s at a four array and the only hope is they go for different targets as the plane automatically steps IDs. It makes some sense, not like any particular ID is special or more or less deserving. What would be the point of letting you step through the IDs manually? Maybe if you and your wingman could sort a cluster 50 50? That could only work if your and his radars came to the same answer.

[Bankler]

Frederf>>

Thanks, that’s some really interesting input!

 

But are you saying that 4 contacts that are close to each other but clearly separated (say a line abreast 4-ship formation with 0.5 nm separation between each aircraft) formation should not show up in the RAID view, due to the fact that the radar can already distinguish the four echoes through “normal” means?

My limited understanding (and how it currently works in DCS) is that they would show up. And it would now be easier to distinguish and count them compared to in the normal view.

I guess the use-case I’m after is “you take the two ones on the right, and I take the two left ones”.

[Bankler]

Assuming the Hornet can fire RAID sorted missiles at an array it must have some way of sub targeting. It might be entirely automatic. It might not be possible any way to fire on an array with any intelligence. Fire four 120s at a four array and the only hope is they go for different targets as the plane automatically steps IDs. It makes some sense, not like any particular ID is special or more or less deserving. What would be the point of letting you step through the IDs manually? Maybe if you and your wingman could sort a cluster 50 50? That could only work if your and his radars came to the same answer.

 

Disclaimer, I don't know if you're talking about what can be done irl or in dcs. So I might have misunderstood the point of your post.

 

But in the game, as far as I can tell, I can't change targets in RAID at all. Not manually, and they're not changing automatically when firing 120s at them either (all 4 missiles go for the same target). So unless I'm missing something, there's currently no way you can fire missiles at different targets in RAID. I, assume(?), it's a bug, but I'm not sure.

[sk000tch]

When engaging multiple target, I've found it useful to just go 1) undesignate, 2) fire, 3) repeat until each of my targets has a 120 coming at them.

 

If my targets are in a tight formation, I guess it makes sense to use the RAID function to zoom in. However, if I press undesignate when in RAID (expecting the target to cycle), it doesn't cycle target, but instead exits RAID.

 

1) Is this correct? I haven't studied any sources, so it's just pure speculation, but to me it doesn't seem that logical, as you can already enter and exit RAID with the HOTAS (RAID / FLIR FOV button), so why would undesignate suddenly change functionality?

 

2) Is there another way to (rapidly) cycle targets in RAID, that I've just overlooked?

 

Note: I tried the same thing in EXP. In that mode, cycling with undesignate works, but it also allows the target to change to something that's not on the zoomed in screen.

 

I can clarify somewhat but I have conflicting info on the behavior of undesignate during raid assessments. Wags original tws video focused on DT2 and swapping. I not sure why, except that it is useful for designating closing spaced targets in RAID. Like you, however, I also find stepping trackfiles via undesignate to be the easiest way to engage with multiple missiles quickly.

 

It'd be great if one of the SME's would jump in with clarification but they may not be comfortable discussing the topic as certain details of RAID assessments, like their ability to discern rapidly accelerating objects without getting lose in clutter of compressor blades and such, might be grey. Frankly the "I think it should" posts are about as helpful as "I think the Hornet should supercruise at mach 2." Worse really, because they tend to get repeated and become lore.

 

Anyway... raid assessment takes a variable amount of time to detect multiple contacts if they exist. Binary star bullsh&*? aside, raid assessments work similarly to the way synthetic aperture radar imaging works. RAID assessment unlike EXP changes the wave form and antenna scan. It uses a wide band wave to precisely discern changes in range (like SAR, except both emitter and target are moving). The time to detect depends on a number of variables, but having some cut will improve speed. Once the MC's have generated tracks, you should be able to step trackfiles via undesignate without being in RAID. What I am not sure about is how undesignate acts during assessment. From what I've been told it depends on whether the assessment has generated trackfiles and if other tracks have aged out, or it works much like the RTS functions we don't have yet (note these are also time dependent in their behavior). I don't like to state with certainty how something should act unless I'm sure, and i'm not sure in this case.

 

EXP is correct though. The antenna and waveform do not change, it is literally a digital zoom. It will maintain tracks outside of your view as the azimuth and bar do not change. Thus, if the next highest rank trackfile is outside your current view, when you step it will recenter on that trackfile.

 

For now, I think its helpful to think of it as building SA but not a targeting tool. Perform a RAID assessment if you suspect undetected bandits, HUC or mode 4 to accelerate trackfile generation if necessary. You're correct that you cannot change L&S in RAID, but you can designate DT2. If you're trying to pick out escorts or similar, the DT1/DT2 designate and swap method wags showed works well.

[Frederf]

Frederf>>

Thanks, that’s some really interesting input!

 

But are you saying that 4 contacts that are close to each other but clearly separated (say a line abreast 4-ship formation with 0.5 nm separation between each aircraft) formation should not show up in the RAID view, due to the fact that the radar can already distinguish the four echoes through “normal” means?

My limited understanding (and how it currently works in DCS) is that they would show up. And it would now be easier to distinguish and count them compared to in the normal view.

I guess the use-case I’m after is “you take the two ones on the right, and I take the two left ones”.

 

Traditional resolution is angular for azimuth so spacing which can/cannot be resolved depends on range primarily. 3000' separation may be trivial to resolve at 5nm but impossible at 60nm. I think range binning is constant resolution at all ranges though. It's probably a lot easier to hide in azimuth than in range. The radar will certainly display targets as individual contacts when they are resolved in the traditional manner. Exact display of a raid assessment is probably classified. The display might just be digits next to the contact or a synthetic breakout into a synthetic formation of bricks. It might even vary the display based on the manner in which the cluster was assessed (Doppler sharpened azimuth, range analysis, echoes of multipath bouncing between the targets, micro velocity differences, etc.).

 

Now this is real life thinking. DCS I don't know what happens. I don't know of any DCS module that incorporates the concept of resolution cells and targets merging into one contact let alone modeling the sophistication of raid assessment. The radar is working hard in assessment integrating over multiple pulses and switching modes trying to correlate and build confidence in its count.

 

At least in F-16s there is such a thing as attacking a cluster by something called "AMRAAM engagement order number" which is probably the numbered list of the RCR assessment. It says you can attack specific sub-contacts this way so presumably you can pick to attack 1 and 3 for example in a four-count raid. If F/A-18 does this either with manual selection or just ensuring that multiple missiles are assigned different targets without pilot choice or even if this feature is entirely missing (unlikely) I don't know.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Frederf

[sk000tch]

\3000' separation may be... I think... It's probably ... will certainly ...probably classified...might just be digits...It might even vary...I don't know what...I don't know ...

 

At least in F-16s there is such a thing as attacking a cluster by something called "AMRAAM engagement order number" which is probably the numbered list of the RCR assessment

 

Jesus dude you are just making shit up. Edited you post to take out the incorrect things. Left the "AMRAAM engagement order number" because it's a really funny way to stay ranked trackfile. Which btw has nothing to do with RCR assessment (I don't actually know what RCR assessment is.. I googled it but all I could find is something about cardiology and heart health). Tracks are ranked according to whether: 1) they are designated L&S (always #1), 2) Tracks guiding a missile in flight, 3) range rate of closure and range, 4) co-speed are ranked by range, 5) AOT or tracks with unknown range are ranked by their azimuth distance off nose (essentially ATA)

 

People seriously need to stop with the I think/probably/it should stuff. I don't understand the point. We aren't advocating for some design choice, they are modelling accuracy.. or trying to at least. People do use this as a resource and I can't count the number of times some crazy shit has been repeated and repeated because somebody just made it up.

 

I don't think it helps anyone here to start discussing range gates, pulse intervals or waveforms. If you really want the physics PM and I'll send some links. Suffice to say a high PRF is pretty friggin bad at detecting range (though excellent at detecting high closure). Low PRF, like used in ground mapping, is damn good at assessing range but is slow. Radar can't xmit and listen at the same time, so a wideband waveform (as in rapid assessment) must directed at a small area or single target due to the extended dwell time necessary to allow integration of the purse returns. SAR and RAID both work on this same basic principle that as the radar emitter is moving, it gets a slightly different angle look at an object. In RAID assessment emitter and target are moving, thus very small differences can be resolved.

 

None of this has anything to do with the question/answer we don't know - what undesignate button should do if pressed shortly after initiating a RAID assessment. I'm not a hornet driver, and don't know charlies well enough to know the quirky analogue not in the manual shit like this. Hopefully one of our ex-charlie pilots jumps in to answer the question at hand, but I don't think many hang out here any more. Too many people arguing with them about how the planes they actually flew worked, or whether you can flare a Hornet...

[S. Low]

lol so there IS a zoom function for the radar screen? I'm a dumby.

[Frederf]

What I said is true of raid assessment in general but looking more into the APG-65 specifically it doesn't do a lot of the RA techniques which would result in clusters with counted but unresolved targets. This is where cluster IDs being passed to missiles would come in. I apologize for confusing the situation by discussing the topic from a perspective wider than the Hornet specifically. The goal was to emphasize the difference between re-assessment and simply display expansion.

 

The APG-65 apparently only does DBS in support of raid assessment and not all the other techniques which can be applied in theory. I'm a little disappointed. The downside is that have certain limitations but the upside is that resolution actually produces resolved targets. In that way the radar never has to deal with the concept of pseudo resolution and unusual methods of displaying and handling them like other radars.

 

Obviously you want a way to select different targets inside this temporary resolution. Some of the radar states like L&S/DT2 the undesignate steps selection and you have to instead press the reset button to exit the mode. If I had to guess I would guess that RA should be set up the same way. That or some other button logic like short presses and long presses or something. The notion that the only way to pick among a raid is by manual cursor doesn't seem terribly likely. That's one for those with the specific documentation in front of them.

[maxTRX]

Well it seems like my eyeballs have better resolution then current rendition of RAID in DCS Hornet.

I had a section of JF17's at co-altitude at 40nm hot, flying in right echelon. I tried using RAID at different distances. Not until around 10nm I was able to see a slight "blur" on L&S heading line.

Shortly after I was able to distinguish 2 separate dots visually anyways.

This was just a test but I shut them down for good measure:

https://youtu.be/Xlm3qPs3lDY

[Bankler]

Alright, so I did some more testing and realized there is a workaround, sort of. Still no way to "quick switch" target, but at first I didn't think you could switch at all, which you can.

 

1) Pick target in TWS

2) Enter raid, make sure you see all four targets on screen

3) Fire

4) TDC cursor over next contact

5) TDC depress (sets secondary tgt)

6) TDC depress again (makes this the primary tgt)

7) Fire

8) Repeat from step 4

[maxTRX]

Alright, so I did some more testing and realized there is a workaround, sort of. Still no way to "quick switch" target, but at first I didn't think you could switch at all, which you can.

 

1) Pick target in TWS

2) Enter raid, make sure you see all four targets on screen

3) Fire

4) TDC cursor over next contact

5) TDC depress (sets secondary tgt)

6) TDC depress again (makes this the primary tgt)

7) Fire

8) Repeat from step 4

 

Post #3

Yea, that's what I've been doing.

TBH, I don't think we will face too many RAID type situations in DCS MP:smilewink:

In RW probably neither.

[sk000tch]

Alright, so I did some more testing and realized there is a workaround, sort of. Still no way to "quick switch" target, but at first I didn't think you could switch at all, which you can.

 

1) Pick target in TWS

2) Enter raid, make sure you see all four targets on screen

3) Fire

4) TDC cursor over next contact

5) TDC depress (sets secondary tgt)

6) TDC depress again (makes this the primary tgt)

7) Fire

8) Repeat from step 4

 

This and the follow up post on same topic are the DT1/DT2 method wags was using, it's not what most would recommend in most circumstances, but works quick well in raid assessment. Engage rapid assessment on L&S, designate DT2 on other escort or whatever, exist and swap via undesignate as needed in regards to employing. Frankly I can't' say that It's inaccurate, that might be how legacy hornets are. Guys don't tend to stay in raid and fixate. Take a look top understand the group and build tracks, get back out and sanitize for SA.