MADDOG!

[GGTharos]

I believe they have good reasons, or the document is not up to date ;)

[Frostie]

I should imagine Maddog at 15/20km+ would be a pretty unrealistic tactic, but be it 120 or 77 it happens and succeeds in LO a lot.:)

[GGTharos]

Why would it be unrealistic? That's just outside HPRF range.

[Frostie]

For the reason that your radar is for locking targets and firing upon rather than blindly maddogging in the general direction at such distance.

[GGTharos]

Actually the Visual mode is specifically for engaging targets in this manner (targets that you see) and the missile is capable of tracking something you can see (it'll be in the ballpark correct range for a maddog). But I don't think it'll have the same pk as a missile with initial guidance from the radar, since a visual launch to me would indicate you're firing in a hurry or something of the sort.

 

In any case ... I'm well aware of the scan zone issues in lock on for those, but I don't think the seekers can be made smarter without a lot of work. And they need to be a lot smarter in order to become more limited in the way you're thinking of, assuming we're on the right page.

[Pilotasso]

But he mentions targets you cant see.

[Frostie]

My understanding of maddog is an AMRAAM launched at a bore sighted visual target.

[cool_t]

Try This out!

 

Go to your mission editor,

 

1. Put a bandit 40nm away from you going head to head, at about 25nm lock tha bandit up and look at your target indicator on the HUD. Then un lock the bandit and fire 120s or R-77s, ETs, in the general direction.

 

2. Now put the bandit 40nm away from you going head to head, at about 25nm lock him up and wait for MAX range indication and fire your 120s or R-77s, ETs.

 

Check it out and see the results or missile KILL ZONES in this experiment. Youwill find that the missile works harder in one of these cases which is contradictory to "Active" and "Pasive" radar intercept points.

 

Thats what is funny,

 

:pilotfly:

[159th_Viper]

My understanding of maddog is an AMRAAM launched at a bore sighted visual target.

 

The US Army, USMC, USN and USAF agree with you!

 

And yes, almost forgot: Me Too :)

[504Goon]

But i bet IRL scenarios an AMRAAM would not be fired without a lock, except when the target would be within the HPRF range of the missile, as AFAIK that would lower the Pk of the missile. Sure, it could be called a maddog if someone would shoot an AMRAAM without a lock against an aircraft he just saw 25nm away.. but i bet the guy would be hearing about that in the debrief. :)

 

A maddog should not be confused with a Cheapshot, in that case the target parameters are given to the missile prior to the launch, but there won't be mid course updates, or for whatever reason, they'll stop before the missile goes terminal.

[cool_t]

But i bet IRL scenarios an AMRAAM would not be fired without a lock, except when the target would be within the HPRF range of the missile, as AFAIK that would lower the Pk of the missile. Sure, it could be called a maddog if someone would shoot an AMRAAM without a lock against an aircraft he just saw 25nm away.. but i bet the guy would be hearing about that in the debrief. :)

 

A maddog should not be confused with a Cheapshot, in that case the target parameters are given to the missile prior to the launch, but there won't be mid course updates, or for whatever reason, they'll stop before the missile goes terminal.

 

 

You need to predict where your bandit will be, with no mid couse updates your missile is taking a straight line to where the target "Was" fastest and shortist distance to the target. Then if your lucky when your missile goes active then it moves.

 

Your missile effectiveness range can be augmented in many ways. With a skillfull pilot they will know when to use this tactic.

 

Here is a good example of what we are talking about.

 

On this specific mission flown I was egressing to Sochi when a well placed R-77 got me, it was a Maddog/SPAM" shot from at least 17nm away. The Tac-View track is long gone but it was a good and lucky shot.

 

http://stats.169thpanthers.com/pilotstats.php?month=September&pilot=cool_t

 

:pilotfly:

[borchi_2b]

ok yeniceri,

let me tell yozu, yes there are existing pilots whos name is or was maddog.

i myself know one former f-15e WSO whos callsign was maddog, but the actual thing is, maddoging is one, sorry the words, piece of bulls.... .

all the pilots who say that this is the way of killing a bandit, are not really good pilots, sorry, but in real combat no pilot would ever maddog a amraam unless he is in a close range fight like 10 miles where he shots the amraam nearly visual on a target and has no time to lock, cause the misslie goes of the rail active.

maddoging is crap, cause, when you have a good pilot, he will evade the dangerzone right away, like my leader and i do it.

as a team we know what to do and when to do.

the maddoging only works against noobs or people who never tested the azimuth of the amramm.

we know how long we have to flank or gimgle to get out of that envelope of the missile.

i bet, that no maddoging missile will hit anybody of us, cause we always try to see in advance what happens next be analysing the movement of the bandit.

usually the people who are maddoging turn after they have fired thier missiles.

so when the bandit turns at a range of 25 km or about 17 miles, or less, we know that an rwr call of an active missile will follow shortly, so what do we do.

we turn 180, or gimble 90 and raise altitude.

so what happens folks, the missile runs out of energie and it will not hit at all, even when you predicted the right direction there is allways a countermeassure for bandits like the people who shot and thrust the actives to much

 

thats about all

 

a good pilot, does not matter if in real life or virtually, always makes decisions, it only matters if he makes the right once.

you make a mistake, you usually die

 

greetings

 

borchi_2b

[Kuky]

Loved reading your post borchi! ;)

[borchi_2b]

thanks kuky

 

i am way to deep into the bussiness of fighteraircrafts for a too long time, to not say anything to that threat.

i myself have a f-15c pilot in my family, and guess what, maddoging is the last choice acting in a fight.

first you fire and hope with a big possibilty of not hitting the foe, then you have to redo it more than one time, most likely, unless the bandit is in visual range, and the worst is, you really, and i mean really, waist missiles.

out of six unguided missiles, without support of the weaponcomp, only one will evantually kill one bandit.

but how everybody knows, fighters are not rambos and fly alone, there for you allways have to predict at least 2 to 4 bandits.

when you shot in a maddoging style, like mantioned, it will be for a good team of 2 pilots, like chicken hunt, an easy task.

and by the way guys, maddoging is real when you want to fire an 27et at override, which they can also perform in real life.

but it is not easy at all to fire an et at a range of 40 -50 km.

you rally have to be well trained and have to know what you do, but thats a totally other topic, just wanted to mention that nearly everything in lock on is possible in real life, only that in real life you have better weapons, but he basics of fighting an bvr are the same, as far you have gone through a good flightschool in an onlinesquad

 

but well, you all will figure for yourself, trust me

 

greetings

borchi_2b

[borchi_2b]

and by the way, cause i read on page 3 some interesting oppinions, when an amramm does not hit the target, it does not mean, that the missile is the guilty one, nono guys, did it ever came to your mind, that the other pilot, the bandit, made the right choice at the right time?

maybe the pilot you are fighting with is better then you predicted and well that means it will end up in a hard fight, cause when nobody is shot down, till you reach a dogfight distance, then both sides have made things right and wrong at the same fight, is everybody able to follow?

but one thing is for sure, when you are a good pilot, you will have killed your target with at least the 3rd missile. that is thefact, cause a good pilot always tries to predict what the bandit does next, it is like chest

 

ok, i better stop now, or they will kick me out of the forum, lol

[GGTharos]

t

and by the way guys, maddoging is real when you want to fire an 27et at override, which they can also perform in real life.

 

No, they cannot. Launch override is strictly for launching those missiles off your rails instead of jettisonning them, because those pylons have no jettison pyrotechnics. Period, end of story (but don't take my word for it. Read the Su-27SK operator's manual)

 

you rally have to be well trained and have to know what you do, but thats a totally other topic, just wanted to mention that nearly everything in lock on is possible in real life, only that in real life you have better weapons, but he basics of fighting an bvr are the same, as far you have gone through a good flightschool in an onlinesquad

 

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. So much for having an F-15C pilot in the family huh? Or maybe you do, but you haven't listened to what he's said, or he hasn't really explained all the much to you. Please don't qualify your opinion with 'I have a fighter pilot in the family' and then proceed to blurt out stuff that is known to not be true.

[GGTharos]

The fact is that AMRAAMs have performed very nicely when it comes to single-shot kills in real life. The fact also happens to be that Lock On's AMRAAMs are severely under-ranged (as are sidewinders) and all missile seekers are vulnerable to a timing issue that makes them too easy to ditch at short ranges so long as you have speed and can pull medium-G maneuvers. Not to mention the susceptibility to CM's ... none of which reflects reality.

 

 

and by the way, cause i read on page 3 some interesting oppinions, when an amramm does not hit the target, it does not mean, that the missile is the guilty one, nono guys, did it ever came to your mind, that the other pilot, the bandit, made the right choice at the right time?

maybe the pilot you are fighting with is better then you predicted and well that means it will end up in a hard fight, cause when nobody is shot down, till you reach a dogfight distance, then both sides have made things right and wrong at the same fight, is everybody able to follow?

but one thing is for sure, when you are a good pilot, you will have killed your target with at least the 3rd missile. that is thefact, cause a good pilot always tries to predict what the bandit does next, it is like chest

 

ok, i better stop now, or they will kick me out of the forum, lol

[borchi_2b]

ok GGtharos,

 

now let me tell you one little thing about the real life.

taktiks that work in real life do work in lockon and the other way, thats what i actually mentioned with my words.

and only because the is the ED Tester Team underneath your name does that not mean, o just saying others are crap.

you know, i could tell the people here alot about fighting with the eagle in real life, but in that case it is part of the secretact, and would cause my cousin to loose his job and bring me into jail. thats not worth it, believe me.

it is nice to read your oppinion but well i have my knowledge from a real pilot who is, or was 23 years in flying fighters, and sorry when i say that this way, but he for sure knows more about fighting and all the tactics, then an little ed tester who propably never ever felt what 9 gґs feel like.

ahh, before i forget it, the aim 120 in lock on is like the a version of that stick, thats what i can tell you cause it is all known how good or bad the aim 120a was.

the new aim 120c is way better after it had many software updates and boster updates, the max range is at about 100 miles which is way more than the one in lockon has.

you should never forget lockon is game, or a sim if you want to call it right, and not real life.

real life is more advanced and has more possibilities then lockon, thats why all the easy stuff of lock on is possiblie in real life, believe me or not it is your choice.

and well

GGtharos, why do i have picture of myself in the avatr of me wearing a helmet off the new target cueing system of the us air force?

do you think that it is a joke ?

for sure it is not

 

ahh by the way, i also have a friend who is a german instructor pilot who trained the guys in canada and he also knows lockon.

his comment, most realistic fighter sim, next to falcon.

do you really think these people do not know what they talk about?

[GGTharos]

^^^^

 

No, I just think you're lying. That's all there is to it. :D

The Lock-On AMRAAM doesn't even match the A version. Period. And you can find THAT out from UNCLASS media. But it's not like you'd have to do your research since you've got all them pilot friends whispering secret stuff in your ear, eh? ...

[159th_Viper]

....No, I just think you're lying....

 

Now that's not very Nice ;)

[Kuky]

^^^^

 

No, I just think you're lying. That's all there is to it. :D

The Lock-On AMRAAM doesn't even match the A version. Period. And you can find THAT out from UNCLASS media. But it's not like you'd have to do your research since you've got all them pilot friends whispering secret stuff in your ear, eh? ...

 

So have you fired any AIM-120's, of any version, in real life to be able to have extensive personal experience and large number stastics on how well the real thing performs and that you can tell with 100% certainty LockOn AIM-120 is so very wrong?

 

Also, how easy is for people who fly sims, to forget that unlike in real life you feel no G's at all and more importantly, do not fear of really loosing your life, or even have on your mind things you were told how to fly while you were trained for many years... you are able to perform things you wouldn't do in real life... and believe me, when your life becomes an issue you'd chose to things differently.

 

Real life combat and online simmming is nothing alike... you'd be thinking twice before trying to be a hero, decide to attack two or more bandits... fire those AIM-120 maddoging them (wasting them) then doing some constant hard G pulls and go evasive for extensive periods of time... and lets say even if you don't get hit and you manage ro RTB you'd have some good explaining to do as to why you waste expensive weaponry just like that... frankly I don't think you'd be flying again any time soon...

[GGTharos]

... did you actually read what I wrote, or - nevermind. Read what I wrote again. Especially the capital words.

[Kuky]

Media can be as much as full of s**t as well but you said he's lying and I asked you if you've ever fired an AMRAAM yourself so that you can speak from your own experience... and mind you, even those vary from person to person... so there is no real telling when some sim has got missile right or not, it realy is all just guessing...

[GGTharos]

How about a HUD tape with the 120 DLZ on it? ;) Is that less full of shit for you?

[Kuky]

Alright, HUD tape where you can see your and target aspect is good to see... replicate same conditions in LockOn then lets see differences.