AIM 120C getting upgrade

[Nexus-6]

As much as you love the Tomcat, I think this is an eye opener…

 

 

 

Yes, I've seen it, and I don't doubt that what that guy is saying is true. However, I think this video being used disingenuously. Having teething problems and needing a "breaking in" period does not, in and of itself, make a specific airframe an objectively bad design.

 

No one could reasonably claim that the F-16 is a failure, and yet it acquired the nickname of "Lawn Dart" in it's prototype phase. Or, for an even better example, look at the F-35's developmental history.

 

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[jojo]

I'm not saying it's a bad design.

This is an awesome design, with great range and weapon load.

 

But it's a complex airframe.

Even after youth problem, he tells how they had to constantly plan spare planes and how a fighter like the F-16 was much more reliable.

 

And this kind of thing doesn't improve after nearly 30 years of service life...

Edited January 30, 2020 by jojo

[Pikey]

:), really... for you speed is the main factor to be a good (the best)missile against agile fighters with modern countermesure systems ?

You can repeat this nonsense, as much as you want, this will not make it a truth.

 

"Despite the successes of the AIM-54, it was still a big heavy missile designed for use against relatively non-maneuvering targets"

Charlie Gao "military specialist"

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/who-cares-about-stealth-missile-transformed-air-combat-forever-35092

 

 

 

It's your own words, not mine.

I asked a simple question, but nobody seems to be able to answer it, perhaps you ?

 

- at what range the F-14 radar is able to burn-through a modern jamming fighter ?

 

"Common sense" took a big pounding in this thread. Here's layman's common sense, laid out for easy understanding.

 

In the Blue corner, it's AIM-54! He's seemingly overweight, too fat, cannot manouver, designed only for large unaware bombers with drunk crews, etc etc. This boy couldn't hit a fighter because they removed his brain!

 

AIM-54 generic

Date 1974?

Speed M5

MaxG 18G

Guidance SARH

Mass 450 kg

Length 13 ft (4.0 m)

Diameter 15" (380 mm)

Warhead 61kg

 

vs.

 

Our Red contender tonight, the Buk SA11 9M38, designed to counter cruise missiles, smart bombs, fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft, and unmanned aerial vehicles, proven deadly (at least vs large civilian aircraft) it's also touted 3 Su25's a Tu22, several drones and depending on whose version you want to read, "some" incoming cruise missiles in Syria:

 

9m38

Date 1978

Speed M3

MaxG 19

Guidance SARH

Mass 690 kg

Length 18 ft 3" (5.55 m)

Diameter 16" 0.4 m

Warhead 70kg

 

So, two countries, at roughly the same time, at similar tech levels (regardless of the rocket that sent men to the moon) build missiles of similar dimensions, yet the Russian one, fatter, longer, heavier, higher payload, with the unfortunate handicap of starting from zero speed and zero altitude is apparently way more lethal than the American one starting at 400kts and 20-30 thousand feet and lofting to double that?

 

And maybe whilst debunking the AIM-54 you had best warn the US that their even fatter, slower HAWK systems are useless too?

 

 

Fat shaming in 2020 is so uncool!

 

 

And i love your source!

"Charlie Gao" https://pl.linkedin.com/in/charlie-gao-7a241995 studied political and computer science at Grinnell College (arts college) in 2017 before trying his hand at amateur journalism for the last two years to support his Masters degree in Poland, and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

 

 

Aren't we all?

 

 

Aim54 argument closed, it hits fighters.

[jojo]

Egyptian SA-6 during Yom Kippur did score pretty well too against Israeli A-4 &F-4E...

[KlarSnow]

As did the SA-2 in Vietnam with a 5,000 lb missile (if Wikipedia is accurate) a patently worse missile in just about every aspect to all of those mentioned above that was specifically designed to shoot down bombers and high altitude planes. Shot down plenty of US fighters throughout the conflict.

 

Missile size has nothing to do with how effective it is vs a target.

[falcon_120]

On a different topic, i'm curious about the whitepaper ED would share with other 3rd parties regarding missiles and of course the improvements to the aim120c lofting and FM They were expected for february, any news about this?

 

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[IronMike]

On a different topic, i'm curious about the whitepaper ED would share with other 3rd parties regarding missiles and of course the improvements to the aim120c lofting and FM They were expected for february, any news about this?

 

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That's a question best asked to ED directly in the general forums, we wouldn't know.

[falcon_120]

That's a question best asked to ED directly in the general forums, we wouldn't know.

True, it was rather a request for info from other posters who might have read about it.

 

Although, otoh i thought part of the announcement from ED was about getting into a constructive analysis of the AS IS regarding the Phoenix and SD10 with you guys and DEKA to see if they (the missiles) are where they should be, and I mean following a total factual approach. I get from your answer that no contact have been made from ED and no discussion is happening.

 

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[jojo]

True, it was rather a request for info from other posters who might have read about it.

 

Although, otoh i thought part of the announcement from ED was about getting into a constructive analysis of the AS IS regarding the Phoenix and SD10 with you guys and DEKA to see if they (the missiles) are where they should be, and I mean following a total factual approach. I get from your answer that no contact have been made from ED and no discussion is happening.

 

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From my understanding, HB did research on AIM-54, and they submitted the files for analysis to ED. And they did share some it here already in the past.

 

So that work has already been done for AIM-54.

 

SD-10 is another topic.

[JB3DG]

Second, a phoenix is 4.01 m for 447 kg, a r27er is 4.80m(ouch) for 350kg, not bad :).

A fighter, as little as mig29 can carry 2X r27er + 2X r77+2X r73 + fuel tank 1400 kg.

Then no, you don't need a fighter as big as f-14 to carry 2X phoenix.

 

 

That 100kg makes quite a difference in a critical item: diameter

 

Second, the F-15, F-16, and F-18 have limits as to where they can place their missiles due to pylon weight.

 

If you were to put phoenixes on the F-16 for example, you would have to put them on the inner pylons as the wingtips aren't going to take a 1000lb load.

 

And you can forget about sticking a .38m wide missile in the AMRAAM bays of the F-22 or F-35. They would go in the bomb bays instead, which effectively makes the aircraft A-A only, when multirole is preferred. Maybe useful in a situation where you want A-A only, but I think the strategists and tacticians have something else in mind: Hit the enemy aircraft on the ground before they can get airborne, blow up their runways so they can't take off, wipe out the SAM sites, and then move in attack aircraft to hit the army in the field. Basically, they would rather prevent an air threat from developing in the first place, rather than try to cure it.

[jojo]

By the way, it isn’t just about being being able to carry the missile under the wing.

Being an AA weapon, how many G will you be able to pull with it.

 

Being able to pull 9G with 350kg doesn’t mean that you can still do it with 450kg. That isn’t just +100kg, this is +900kg !

[TLTeo]

Plus I imagine that carrying the thing under the wings would be far worse for performance than in the tunnel like on a Tomcat, especially if you're carrying more than two.

[captain_dalan]

Indeed, weapon stations and-or hard points are probably rated for the stores they are supposed to be carrying ..... just a guess

[LastRifleRound]

So much conjecture here.

 

From wikipedia regarding the AIM54C's mission:

"In 1977, development of a significantly improved Phoenix version, the AIM-54C, was developed to better counter projected threats from tactical anti-naval aircraft and cruise missiles, and its final upgrade included a re-programmable memory capability to keep pace with emerging ECM."

 

From wikipedia re. Iran/Iraq service record:

"According to Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop, during the Iran-Iraq War AIM-54s fired by IRIAF Tomcats achieved 78 victories against Iraqi MiG-21/23/25s, Tu-22s, Su-20/22s, Mirage F 1s, Super Étendards, and even two AM-39 Exocets and a C-601. This includes two occasions where one AIM-54 was responsible for the downing of two Iraqi aircraft, as well as an incident on January 7, 1981 where a Phoenix fired at a four-ship of MiG-23s downed three and damaged the fourth"

 

It's not a death ray, but it's clearly not just for bombers and wasn't designed as such.