What kind of Training System will be in BS?

[Snacko]

What kind of Training System will be in BS?

 

The Video with just text (and no speech) in Lockon, really didn't do much for me. It would be nice if you could actually have some kind of 'in flight' training. Or even just some audio with the videos.

[Jascha]

Whatever it will be I'm sure that Ironhand will release some nice training videos. Always worth downloading.

[britgliderpilot]

What kind of Training System will be in BS?

 

The Video with just text (and no speech) in Lockon, really didn't do much for me. It would be nice if you could actually have some kind of 'in flight' training. Or even just some audio with the videos.

 

IIRC you'll get voiceover training. I've said so several times, but can't remember now where I saw it.

 

edit - third question of the DCS announcement FAQ . . . so yeah. Voiceover training is coming, and it is very necessary with an aircraft of this complexity.

[BBQ]

drooling.

[Aeroscout]

hmm... I was hoping for interactive training like in MSFS.

[Sundowner.pl]

The best training system would be based on that one from Jane's Longbow series. It was also closest to real helicopter training (giving student one control at a time).

 

All other simulations assumed that the player is CPL(H) licensed helicopter pilot with few hundreds hours behind them. So few tips&tricks should be passed on that training session.

- Like pointing out, that there is a delay between moving a stick, and the helicopter responding to that, and the longer the stick is deflected the more 'powerful' and harder to counter the response will be.

- Learn 'pulse steering'* in hover.

- Explain what's gyroscopic precession - not an issue with co-axial rotor systems... until you try to do a pedal turn ;)

etc. etc.

 

 

Yet... nobody would put unexperienced person inside Ka-50 for his first flight :joystick: So whatever will be done... it won't be realistic :smilewink:

 

 

* I have no idea how to call that technique

[Eagle Driver]

I don't know how many here have heard of what the FighterOps project is going to do for training, but I think you can safely call it the ultimate. Instead of figuring out what the best method might be, they've let the USAF figure that out and made the training a simulation in itself, their first module will be entirely devoted to basic training to learn how to fly.

Of course, this is quite extreme, but to have a nice little flight school, like with animated briefings and narration, with MSFS-style flying to get used to the system, that would be fine. FC's training for the F-15 can be summed up like so:

Flying: It's just like the A-10, but everything looks different, have fun.

Radar: Let's go over everything once over, in text, with a maximum of acronyms.

AIM-9 / Gun: Meh, it's so easy I never watched it...

RWR: This is how you know something's shooting at you, good luck. *BOOM*

HOJ: When ECM is going, missiles use pure pursuit. Nevermind that R-27ER that's leading us.

Missile Evasion: Fly Su-27 or get out.

 

Hey, it's better than dropping a Falcon 4.0 manual, but I learned more about flying the Eagle from Ironhand than the tutorials, and he doesn't do Eagle tutorials. My personal opinion is that if there's something important (like midair refuelling or REAL BFM) that you have to dig in the manual for, the training's not good enough.

[leafer]

Perhaps when they release the Apache they'll include in-cockpit instructor but it might feel odd to have an instructor speaking to you as if he was in the pit in the KA-50. Yes, I'm being anal here because after all, with voice over instructor, one could argue that it feels like the voice coming from inside your head so what does it matter. heh

 

Eagle Driver,

 

I like extreme in flight simulation. Flight school would be much welcome. I can't wait. Been wanting ED to do that for a long time but I guess it doesn't make business sense to them.

[Eagle Driver]

Here's a wacky idea I came up with. A simulator within a simulator. The entire training process could take place with downgraded graphics and an instructor telling you what to do, like from the outside. I watched the reality show (on DVD) American Fighter Pilot, in which F-15 students faced their hardest times in the sim, in which a chubby white-haired instructor dialed in failures for them to deal with. With an aircraft as complex as the Ka-50, it would be a good idea to train people on identifying and dealing with chewed rotors, missing... things... etc.

[Sundowner.pl]

It doesn't matter how the training will be done in matters what someone will see.

 

What really matters is how the knowledge will be passed to the new pilot, how many important informations will he get, and the difficulty of the training to be acceptable to most flight simmers, even those who are in helo for the first time.

 

It's not that a training mission is loading, you're starting in the cockpit, instructor tells you the startup procedure, and how to operate the ABRIS, and than "Ok, fly to the waypoint A" ... and the student goes "Whooooaaaaa! Slow down, how do I pull this thing off the ground ?!?" Then try everything, and have to start up mission 20 times, each time crashing because nobody told him how to fly.

[Yellonet]

It doesn't matter how the training will be done in matters what someone will see.

 

What really matters is how the knowledge will be passed to the new pilot, how many important informations will he get, and the difficulty of the training to be acceptable to most flight simmers, even those who are in helo for the first time.

 

It's not that a training mission is loading, you're starting in the cockpit, instructor tells you the startup procedure, and how to operate the ABRIS, and than "Ok, fly to the waypoint A" ... and the student goes "Whooooaaaaa! Slow down, how do I pull this thing off the ground ?!?" Then try everything, and have to start up mission 20 times, each time crashing because nobody told him how to fly.

I'm not sure that anyone needs a complete rundown of every theory of helicopter flight theory... it's probably enough with a few lessons of basic flight and then some more with advanced flight, lessons should be quite short so that it's easier to find and go back and see the instruction for a certain feature/control again. Obviously there needs to be a lot of lessons, but if they're long and packed with info you won't be able to take it all in, it's better to concentrate on one or just a few controls at a time and later repeat them togheter with another controls.

The key to learning is repetition, repetition, repetition.

[Sundowner.pl]

Long training mission is definitely wrong approach. Each system should have one or more missions, starting with startup, and learning to fly, to using weapons and your wingman.

 

Helicopter flight theory should be covered in the manual, but in game the factors that matters should be repeated. You can write in manual, that this lever make it go up and down, this one forward, aft, and to the sides, and those two things under your feet will make it spin. You know what happens next ? Crash. To many things at once for most people, that's why during flight training both military and civilian, the instructor gives students one control at a time, to familiarize them with it, than two at a time to synchronize, and finely all. I'm flying helicopter simulations since 1991, I don't need much time to familiarize myself with new sim, but I know people who just started and they keep ending upside down. It's not easy to fly this thing, especially when every new sim is taking the bar a bit higher.

[Yellonet]

Long training mission is definitely wrong approach. Each system should have one or more missions, starting with startup, and learning to fly, to using weapons and your wingman.

 

Helicopter flight theory should be covered in the manual, but in game the factors that matters should be repeated. You can write in manual, that this lever make it go up and down, this one forward, aft, and to the sides, and those two things under your feet will make it spin. You know what happens next ? Crash. To many things at once for most people, that's why during flight training both military and civilian, the instructor gives students one control at a time, to familiarize them with it, than two at a time to synchronize, and finely all. I'm flying helicopter simulations since 1991, I don't need much time to familiarize myself with new sim, but I know people who just started and they keep ending upside down. It's not easy to fly this thing, especially when every new sim is taking the bar a bit higher.

Seems like we're thinking the same here :)

[Sundowner.pl]

Yes we do :thumbup:

 

Wonder if someone from ED team is sitting right now in front of his computer reading this stuff thinking: "Dammit, we have to do it all over again..." :megalol:

[Yellonet]

Yes we do :thumbup:

 

Wonder if someone from ED team is sitting right now in front of his computer reading this stuff thinking: "Dammit, we have to do it all over again..." :megalol:

Hehe... we can wish :smartass:

[JaNk0]

I have to agree with you Sundowner.pl.

I'm not used to fly helis in any sim so "one-control-at-the-moment-familiarization" approch would really help. And some handy tips as you mentioned early in the topic.

[Snacko]

IIRC you'll get voiceover training. I've said so several times, but can't remember now where I saw it.

 

edit - third question of the DCS announcement FAQ . . . so yeah. Voiceover training is coming, and it is very necessary with an aircraft of this complexity.

Well, if it will at least all have voiceover, and not just text, that is a great improvement. I have TekaTeka's videos where he just captured the Training to videos. I can watch the videos on my second monitor, but I cannot make out the text for the life of me. But just text sucks anyway.

 

If we have voiceovers at least on all the training, we can have videos to watch 'and hear' as we practice. But I agree totally that a real 'in-flight' trainer is the best way to go. Especially for DCS, who says they want to: "start a new product line that studies one aircraft at a time in exquisite detail".

[Avimimus]

Here's a wacky idea I came up with. A simulator within a simulator. The entire training process could take place with downgraded graphics and an instructor telling you what to do, like from the outside. I watched the reality show (on DVD) American Fighter Pilot, in which F-15 students faced their hardest times in the sim, in which a chubby white-haired instructor dialed in failures for them to deal with. With an aircraft as complex as the Ka-50, it would be a good idea to train people on identifying and dealing with chewed rotors, missing... things... etc.

 

Very good idea! You could use the main rendering but do things like remove the texture maps and use only the lowest LoD and switch off the AI for half of the units! It would be so easy to make a fake 1980s era simulator out of Lomac.

[Grimes]

Would it be safe to assume that there will be two variations of tutorials? Since the game is both a study sim and for casual gamers. Or will there be absolute basics that allow the game to be learned and played for the casual gamer and then get into the more advanced stuff in other tutorials?

[Mugatu]

How about setting up authorised IPs from the community? Be fun seeing 20 KA-50s trying to hover together during an online training sortie. KA-BOOM-50.

[Eagle Driver]

Reminds me of the book "Chickenhawk". Big ol' field of trainees trying to hover, and not doing so hot. Then again, that was with Hueys, sweeeet.

[britgliderpilot]

How about setting up authorised IPs from the community? Be fun seeing 20 KA-50s trying to hover together during an online training sortie. KA-BOOM-50.

 

I'm expecting the beta testers to be working overtime at release just trying to keep people airborne!

 

Actually flying the aircraft isn't the most challenging part. Flying it, fighting it, and operating the systems will drive you mad.

 

Just expect to break your landing gear a lot as you start learning.

[Nordic]

I hope for a printed manual and some voiceover training flights by ironhand.

[leafer]

How hard is NOE flight in BS? If I remember correctly, the terrain in lomac is pretty flat which will make for uneventful terrain hugging ingress/egress to target.

[bogusheadbox]

How hard is NOE flight in BS? If I remember correctly, the terrain in lomac is pretty flat which will make for uneventful terrain hugging ingress/egress to target.

 

Actually the terrain in Lomac ranges from flat to very mountainous. with a large area of both.

 

Even if terrain is flat, you have other bits of terrain masking available to you. A building is just as good as a mountain in some cases.