Question to testers about FM?

[hreich]

1. Does the Ka-50 have a tendency to rotate to one side like normal helicopter or there is no yawing to one side at all because of counter rotating rotors?

2. When Ka-50 (i am talking about ingame model), lifts off ground, does it stays in place (hands off cyclic), or does it have tendency to move front-rear, left or right?

3. What is sensitivity of controls? Do you have to move a stick only little to make a helicopter move, or do you have to push it long way before it starts moving?

4. Will there be a retreating blade stall implemented in game?

5. Is there a posibillity in game, that two rotor blades collide with each other in-flight?

[Yellonet]

1. Does the Ka-50 have a tendency to rotate to one side like normal helicopter or there is no yawing to one side at all because of counter rotating rotors?

2. When Ka-50 (i am talking about ingame model), lifts off ground, does it stays in place (hands off cyclic), or does it have tendency to move front-rear, left or right?

3. What is sensitivity of controls? Do you have to move a stick only little to make a helicopter move, or do you have to push it long way before it starts moving?

4. Will there be a retreating blade stall implemented in game?

5. Is there a posibillity in game, that two rotor blades collide with each other in-flight?

I'm not a beta tester, but...

 

4. I don't think this is a problem in the same way as with a single main rotor chopper, the problem here is that the rotors will bend in different directions, thus negating the stalling but in the process getting closer to eachother, so the faster you go, the easier it is to smash the blades together.

 

5. Yes.

[Groove]

1. Does the Ka-50 have a tendency to rotate to one side like normal helicopter or there is no yawing to one side at all because of counter rotating rotors?

 

There is a light tendency but not that much as on a single rotor configuration.

 

2. When Ka-50 (i am talking about ingame model), lifts off ground, does it stays in place (hands off cyclic), or does it have tendency to move front-rear, left or right?

 

Its very agile at the lift off and mostly will move a little bit.

 

3. What is sensitivity of controls? Do you have to move a stick only little to make a helicopter move, or do you have to push it long way before it starts moving?

 

It depends on your settings. But to let it move you dont need too much input.

 

4. Will there be a retreating blade stall implemented in game?

 

Afaik yes.

 

5. Is there a posibillity in game, that two rotor blades collide with each other in-flight?

 

Fly 280 kmh and add full right rudder...

[RvETito]

One key word- trimming. IRL during maneuvering the pilot uses the force trim button once in every 1-2 sec. It simplifies the flying a lot and allows very precise manual control at hover. BS's trim model is outstanding, it works exactly as IRL. In FC I almost never use trim, but in BS this is the button I'm pressing the most. Makes me 'feel' the craft better.

 

The Ka-50 doesn't have a yaw thendency in any flight regime except autorotation- then it loses yaw stability.

[Rikus]

So, in lomac we have SFM "Standard Flight Model"

 

In FC we have SFM and new AFM "Advanced flight Model"

 

And in BS we have the new one, how it calls? SAFM? "Super Advanced Flight Model"?

 

:P

[Yellonet]

One key word- trimming. IRL during maneuvering the pilot uses the force trim button once in every 1-2 sec. It simplifies the flying a lot and allows very precise manual control at hover. BS's trim model is outstanding, it works exactly as IRL. In FC I almost never use trim, but in BS this is the button I'm pressing the most. Makes me 'feel' the craft better.

 

The Ka-50 doesn't have a yaw thendency in any flight regime except autorotation- then it loses yaw stability.

Better have a comfy trim button on the stick I guess :)

[diditopgun]

The Ka-50 doesn't have a yaw thendency in any flight regime except autorotation- then it loses yaw stability.

 

Is autorotation well simulated ?

[RvETito]

Is autorotation well simulated ?

 

Indeed. ;)

[RvETito]

Better have a comfy trim button on the stick I guess :)

 

Affirmative. I would recommend a button close to your thumb.

[Sundowner.pl]

I don't see how this could be done - the Force Trim switch I mean - in RL that switch resets controls feedback system to 0 - where the controls (cyclic and rudder pedals) are at the time, without Force Feedback, or other fancy feedback systems in our joysticks and rudders this won't work as it should be.

[Flanker15]

This Force trim button do you simply need to press it to trim or is there another button that I need to press aswell to control the amount of trim?

Also on my new X52 there is a perfect button under the thumb for this!

[kapuhy]

Fly 280 kmh and add full right rudder...

So there's nothing like SPUU-57 in Mi-24?

[RvETito]

This Force trim button do you simply need to press it to trim or is there another button that I need to press aswell to control the amount of trim?

Also on my new X52 there is a perfect button under the thumb for this!

 

Yep, fire button 'C'- that's the one I'm using ;)

[Yo-Yo]

I don't see how this could be done - the Force Trim switch I mean - in RL that switch resets controls feedback system to 0 - where the controls (cyclic and rudder pedals) are at the time, without Force Feedback, or other fancy feedback systems in our joysticks and rudders this won't work as it should be.

 

You are right - surely you can have trim as in real life only if you joystick has FF or you have DIY joystick with springs but with elctromechanical-driven adjustable force center.

If you use generic joystic you must trim the helicopter, then push trim button and return the stick in its center. You must learn the tempo you return it to have this process smooth.

Of course you can see actual position of the stick only referencing to 3D cockpit virtual stick but regarding the fact that your stick movements are mostly relative - not absolute - it's not a big problem.

By the way, in FC was the same thing - the real trim was possible only if you have FF joystick. Trim buttons caused FF stick movement.

[AlphaOneSix]

So there's nothing like SPUU-57 in Mi-24?

 

 

Or SPUU-52 in the Mi-17? ;)

 

This is a good question. Assuming that the SPUU-57 works just like the SPUU-52, the system takes temperature and pressure values and adjusts the amount of pedal input that is possible. When the air is less dense, you are allowed full travel. When the air is more dense, you are not allowed as much travel, since less input is required for a given amount of thrust. This is because the Mi-17 and Mi-24 are literally able to rip of their own tail booms in denser air. That same power is needed at higher altitudes where the air is less dense.

 

The Ka-50 could (should?) have something similar. Yaw inputs on a coaxial rotor system are effected by changing the collective pitch of one set of rotors in the opposite direction of the other. For example, increasing the pitch of the clockwise rotors and decreasing the pitch of the counter-clockwise rotors is done in such a way that the total lift generated doesn't change, but one rotor is doing more work and producing more torque than the other, causing the aircraft to spin opposite of the rotor with increased thrust (making the nose go to the left, in this example). This is only a problem in the Ka-50 with right pedal input, because in that case, the lower rotors increase pitch, while the upper rotors decrease, causing the lower rotors to flap up, and the upper rotors to flap down. At high airspeeds, the rotor disks are already closer to each other on one side of the aircraft, so this could cause them to collide. It does seem to me that a SPUU-52 type of system could alleviate the problem by taking airspeed inputs and limiting the amount of right pedal input that is possible based on that airspeed...so at higher airspeeds, you would simply have less and less right pedal before the control linkage was blocked.

 

Of course, after all of this rambling, I have to point out that I don't know if such a system exists for the Ka-50. It seems possible to me, but it would add a little bit more weight and complexity. But hey, if they do it on the Mil helicopters for the tail rotor, it seems like it would be a good idea to implement on the Kamovs, right?

[kapuhy]

Of course I thought about SPUU-52, my mistake ;)

I think that Ka-50 should have similiar system, who cares about more weight if you could say 'bye' to your rotor instead? SPUU-52 is not so obvious in tail-rotor machines-risk of losing rotor is not so big and this system can be disabled manually in some conditions, but it seems VERY useful in machines like Kamov helis. Steering system on Mi-24 is very advenced, I don't think that Kamov is far behind in this matter.

[Force_Feedback]

They did introduce an electronic limiter after the first prototype crashes to prevent blade clash, it's not a hard limiting system, with enough force it can be overcome. I'm sure the guys working on the sim have more elaborate info.

[AlphaOneSix]

it's not a hard limiting system, with enough force it can be overcome.

 

 

Ah yes, the Mil birds have something like this that limits aft cyclic when the aircraft is on the ground to prevent hitting the tailboom with the main rotor. Like you say, it's just there to let the pilot know that he should stop, but with more force he can continue until *whack* there goes the tail.

[RvETito]

Steering system on Mi-24 is very advenced, I don't think that Kamov is far behind in this matter.

 

And what is so advanced about it? It's a classic design. Any Kamov helicopter after Ka-27 has a unique controls- one hydraulic servo actuator with 4 boosters alltogether in one (RS-60(M) for KA-27/28/29/32 and RS-80 for Ka-50/52) and the patented rotor mast assembly- IMO this is much more advanced solution.

[bradmick]

That's pretty awesome about the forcetrim setup. That'll be really, really nice (especially for an Apache). Now all I have to do is buy a damn force feedback joystick again, heheh.

 

Brad

[Allo]

Is autorotation well simulated ?

 

Indeed. ;)

 

Excellent. Been meaning to ask this question for quite awhile. I know the KA-50 has an ejection seat, but this is a must learn technique for the Apache.:joystick:

[Yellonet]

Too bad there are no HOTAS with FF. That I'm aware of.

Maybe someone should create one, Saitek, you hear me? ;)

[Yo-Yo]

Too bad there are no HOTAS with FF. That I'm aware of.

Maybe someone should create one, Saitek, you hear me? ;)

 

 

No time to be so sad... you can move at least four buttons and one axis from the base of MS FF to the stick. The most awful way is to pin CH grip to MS FF base... I know one.

[kapuhy]

And what is so advanced about it? It's a classic design. Any Kamov helicopter after Ka-27 has a unique controls- one hydraulic servo actuator with 4 boosters alltogether in one (RS-60(M) for KA-27/28/29/32 and RS-80 for Ka-50/52) and the patented rotor mast assembly- IMO this is much more advanced solution.

 

So you think that if anything it 'classic design' it can't be advanced? And steering system in simple robinson heli is same like in Mi-24? Read about SAU or AP on Hind and maybe you'll understand that there's a 'little' difference.

 

And most important-where I posted, that Ka-50 steering is less advanced than Mi-24?:)

[Weta43]

I'm using a MSFFB2 with the throttle of an X52 (X52 stick sits where I can reach the mode rotary) - gives a few more buttons & axis AND force feedback ...

But an integrated set would be nice.