Black Shark - a new level of switchology

[RedTiger]

I watched the ABRIS producer's note. Thanks for taking the time to make that Wags, I enjoyed watching it and getting a first look at the system.

 

Two things came to mind however, when I saw him using the knob on the left side of the display to draw on the map. First, I couldn't help but chuckle at how much it reminded me of the etch a sketch I had as a kid :):

http://www.amazon.com/Ohio-Art-Classic-Etch-Sketch/dp/B000GDH18A/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games&qid=1196877349&sr=8-1

 

Second, I relized that BS now presents a new level of switchology that goes beyond just pressing buttons and turning static dials.

 

Now, this is a moot point since DCS is going to be as close to the real thing as possible, but I still wanted to see what people thought about this. While I think its cool, I can't help but think it will be terribly unintuitive and a pain in the rear to use effectively while flying a helicopter! I've even started to figure out how to rearrange my computer area to move my HOTAS so the stick is between my knees rather than off to the side so I can use my left hand to fly while using the mouse. I've heard anectdotes of real military pilots commenting that the clickable cockpits and keyboard shortcuts that sims provide are very unrealistic and that the real thing is far, far easier to manage. They usually point out how easy it is to twiddle the radio and A/C dials in a car while driving vs. how you would do this in some sort of clickable car cockpit. After a short time, your hands just naturally know where to go and what buttons to press.

 

Before anyone comments I DO play F4. I put up with the clickable cockpit because most of the button pushing is done before I even take off or before I begin to ingress. Most other things you do during combat that are NOT mapped to the F-16 HOTAS, like switching between countermeasure programs, are far easier to do on the keyboard. However, for other things, like setting mark points, its easier to remember how to do them in the clickable pit but I find it really akward to have to pick up the mouse to do it. This is in a Western fly-by-wire aircraft noted for its auto-trim and easiness to fly, with a FM that people often describe as "stuck on rails". Imagine doing all this in an AFM Russian helicopter...in combat! :joystick:

 

Thoughts?

 

EDIT to add that I'm not complaining or asking for things simplified, just noting that a F4-style cockpit is already pretty crazy, and a DCS style one has the potential to be even more so based on what you're attempting to simulate - a 3D environment with knobs and buttons meant for human hands limited to a 2D monitor and a mouse pointer.

[Force_Feedback]

I joint the church of switchology, when is the first mass suicide?

[GGTharos]

RedTiger, last time I tried that in flight (while dodging the sides of a canyon) I flew myself into the ground ... in general, if you're going to do 'maintenance' on your navigation and whatnot, use your datalink, or what-ever, make sure you're in a safe mode of flight ... straight and level at altitude, or in hover.

This shouldn't affect your ability to fight, as I have never needed to touch this stuff beyond initial setup during combat (or for the majority of a flight), but if you go out to do datalink recon, forget high-speed 'run and snap' picture taking methods 'cause you'll run into exactly what you mentioned : You will become overloaded and your SA will suffer.

 

So, to keep it simple, if you know you'll be screwing around in the pit, heads down, don't be in danger. :D

 

Other potential options include things such a touch buddy or plain out touch-screen monitor, but all are obviously added cost.

[ThunderChief]

A small thing i noticed was that you can enter text with the knob (e.g. waypoint names). Is it possible to enter text via the keyboard too? It might not be as realistic, but I think it would make things much easier.

[Mobius1]

I totally agree. When I fly for real, I can just reach over and program the GPS or change radio/nav frequencies out of the corner of my eye, but when I do it in FS, I have to pause it so I can actually get the right frequencies and everything. I was trying to think of ways I could make a small box with five buttons and a dial (don't really need one for brightness) that could control the ABRIS, but I've never really done anything like that, so don't count one me actually getting something to work.

[Shepski]

The autopilot is your friend!

 

When you have to mess around with the ABRIS other then using map and nav modes either stop and hover or slow down with the autopilot in altitdue hold/route or heading mode.

 

You can map the ABRIS push buttons to your stick for ease of zooming the map in and out or changing waypoints which is what you will spend most of the time doing in a hot zone. Entering units into the datalink system uses the panel on the left side of the upper caution panel and not the ABRIS itself.

[RedTiger]

I was trying to think of ways I could make a small box with five buttons and a dial (don't really need one for brightness) that could control the ABRIS, but I've never really done anything like that, so don't count one me actually getting something to work.

 

One thing I saw that saw to this effect, minus the dial you need, was one of those 10-key pads for laptops. Its basically all the keys you find on the numpad on a standard keyboard, but with a cord and USB connector. I wondered if this would work on a desktop as an extra set of buttons and not interfere with the existing keypad. I was going to use it as a poor mans touch screen for the F-16's ICP.

 

The autopilot is your friend!

 

Somehow I didn't think of that. I guess I'm thinking that there will be more to be done in combat. I'm imagining myself wanting to annotate the map when I come across enemies for myself and others on datalink. I suppose this is best done from a safe place, as GG noted, instead of on the fly.

[GGTharos]

One thing I saw that saw to this effect, minus the dial you need, was one of those 10-key pads for laptops. Its basically all the keys you find on the numpad on a standard keyboard, but with a cord and USB connector. I wondered if this would work on a desktop as an extra set of buttons and not interfere with the existing keypad. I was going to use it as a poor mans touch screen for the F-16's ICP.

 

Why not a touch buddy? Too expensive perhaps?

 

 

Somehow I didn't think of that. I guess I'm thinking that there will be more to be done in combat. I'm imagining myself wanting to annotate the map when I come across enemies for myself and others on datalink. I suppose this is best done from a safe place, as GG noted, instead of on the fly.

 

 

Yeah ... don't bother annotating anything that's an immediate threat. Even the real Ka-50, with stuff more 'in reach' doesn't support that level of flexibility IMHO. You don't have a /second/ to so much as look at the datalink panel or ABRIS while trying to find yourself a spot to hide. Therefore, any intelligence actions should be done carefully.

I'll tell you right now, you fly into a combat zone nilly-willy, you'll get shot down. You won't even see where it came from. Take your time, look around, and then you have time for defense, you'll see the threat, and you'll be able to uplink it to your buddies, too.

[Shepski]

 

Somehow I didn't think of that. I guess I'm thinking that there will be more to be done in combat. I'm imagining myself wanting to annotate the map when I come across enemies for myself and others on datalink. I suppose this is best done from a safe place, as GG noted, instead of on the fly.

 

You can safely do it taking cover behind a ridge with auto-hover engaged.

[bogusheadbox]

@ Red Tiger.

You are right. However you have to remember that you are operating a sim. And that most important part of this is that you will not have all the switches available to you in real life to touch. Sure in a real cockpit i can intstinctively move my hand to the approximate position of a switch or dial with only a quick glance to make sure i have the right one before i operate it. That unfortunately you can't do with a basic hotas.

However, you can if you have enough money. You have modern Hotas that have many programmable buttons that will take care of many functions for you. However these buttons won't be situated in the correct place as a real cockpit (who mainly arrange instruments and buttons in a specific manor to aid the pilot). You could then progress to have add on items like touchbuddy or configurable MFD panels. Again, this will give you greater switchology (at a hefty price) but won't accurately simulate the correct positions of the buttons.

THe only real answer for realism is to build your own pit. BUt that is the extreme on the price scale and only a few dedicated people have the funds or patience to do that.

So unfortunately we wil have to suffice with what we can afford to use. But thanks to products like X-52 and the myriad of programmable buttons, this will make switchology a lot easier even though it won't accurately replicate the switches 100%.

However, despite this this downfall (and its only a small one IMHO). You have to remember one very important thing. Flying is all about being ahead of the craft. Most of the switchology is down on the ground and shortly after take off where the major amount of configuration changes are needed.

Things like flight plans, ingress and egress profiles, diversion fields, pressures, nav aids, radio channels etc are mostly configured or chosen to standby before the flight takes place. Sure you can change everything on the fly but a correct preflight will have you not changing much unless in an emergency situation levaing you to concertrate on status checks and wepon profiles mostly. So in essence your workload should be less than you expect if you have planned your flight correctly and propperly set up in preflight.

In the case of things going pear shaped (and lets be honest - most likely will as you are taking the KA-50 into Battle). If you are becomming overrun with workload and can't keep "in-front of the aircraft". Simply asses the situation, pull back. Auto hover (or even land if you like) in your pre selected egress safety area and reconfigure your craft for any changes you need. Once configured for your changed plans you can resume flight (or take off again) with only weapons systems and status checks to make sure all is good.

At least in a helo you can park up somehwere to gather your thought (if you can).

[RedTiger]

Why not a touch buddy? Too expensive perhaps?

 

Yeah, basically. :cry:

 

Things like a touch buddy are one-at-a-time purchases that I usually make every so often. Getting rudder pedals is higher on the list at the moment. I've read reviews of the touch buddy as well as those panels that have detachable keys you can program. I have a bad feeling that I'd end up having to buy 3 or 4 of them because of how much easier they'd make stuff.

 

@bogusheadbox

 

I already have a HOTAS, but I usually program in things that you'd find on the real thing with little room for extra stuff. Perhaps this won't be as much an issue with BS? The F-16 stick and throttle and are bristling with buttons, and when you have your HOTAS programmed the same way, you understand why they designed the real thing the way they did! In general, I find clickable cockpits to be a necessary evil. Even if I'm just sitting on the tarmac entering a ripple setting, it just feels unnatural to be clicking with my mouse. I like the immersion though.

[predaeus]

I prefer a mix. In F4 I just used the keyboard for commands that are often needed and easily remembered. The other stuff is easy to do by looking for the button and clicking it in the cockpit. So if the functions that are important in flight are mapped to keys than I am fine.

 

Also we will have to see how TrackIR and DCS really mixes. It could be very easy to click with the mouse or difficult depending on TrackIR settings.

 

Personally I often had problems in games like IL2 with TrackIR because it does not focus like the human eye does and therefore visibly moves all the time (at least my head does) so the clicking might not be that easy.

[VMFA117_Poko]

@RedTiger

I know immersion is really important here but there is no way to do something more like clickable cockpit without building a real pit. It's good thread. It means we are so close to the real thing. You will always know where button or switch is. No need to get manual habits here. You won't probably ever fly the real Ka-50.

[RedTiger]

I prefer a mix. In F4 I just used the keyboard for commands that are often needed and easily remembered. The other stuff is easy to do by looking for the button and clicking it in the cockpit. So if the functions that are important in flight are mapped to keys than I am fine.

 

Also we will have to see how TrackIR and DCS really mixes. It could be very easy to click with the mouse or difficult depending on TrackIR settings.

 

Personally I often had problems in games like IL2 with TrackIR because it does not focus like the human eye does and therefore visibly moves all the time (at least my head does) so the clicking might not be that easy.

 

I'm interested in how perspective is going to play a part in the pit. In F4AF, the clickable cockpit is 2D. You're just looking at a very detailed bitmap of a cockpit with buttons that are clickable and animated. When you "move" your head, all you're doing it cycling through the different bitmaps which are arranged to match where they would be found in the pit. There's no 3D perspective in the stock pit, you're always directly at the buttons.

 

I don't use Dr. Stopwork's pits anymore since they have panels displayed more realistically. You aren't above, you're looking from the side. I find it difficult to click some switches because they're obscured by others. This worries me about BS. There are going to be some buttons that are smaller since they are farther away, and some obscured by other buttons. How realistic is it to have to duck your head down and move in close with TrackIR just to reach something the real pilot would just reach out and touch? Oh well! It doesn't get much better than this!

[RedTiger]

@RedTiger

I know immersion is really important here but there is no way to do something more like clickable cockpit without building a real pit. It's good thread. It means we are so close to the real thing. You will always know where button or switch is. No need to get manual habits here. You won't probably ever fly the real Ka-50.

 

True, when we're discussing this, you know that we're approaching the limts as to what a sim can simulate! :clap:

[192nd_Erdem]

I joint the church of switchology, when is the first mass suicide?

 

When it's delayed again?

[Force_Feedback]

When it's delayed again?

 

Praise Ja... SWITCH, the switchology god. Peace out, I just use the KB for buttonology (we switchologists think they are descended from the devil, and hence shall burn and we will show no mercy), damn, I admitted it, now the switchologists are going to kill me and then rape my skull.

[GGTharos]

This is a valid concern, but I'll point out that with 6DOF it is not such a big deal. It only takes a small position change to parallax the switches into a position that is more convenient and further, I don't think I recall having to deal with a switch that was obscured while in a tight situation yet. Most of those are setup switches you'll only be fiddling with before takeoff, I'd say.

 

I don't use Dr. Stopwork's pits anymore since they have panels displayed more realistically. You aren't above, you're looking from the side. I find it difficult to click some switches because they're obscured by others. This worries me about BS. There are going to be some buttons that are smaller since they are farther away, and some obscured by other buttons. How realistic is it to have to duck your head down and move in close with TrackIR just to reach something the real pilot would just reach out and touch? Oh well! It doesn't get much better than this!

[Shepski]

The ones behind the cyclic are tougher to get to so moving your head to the side and or up and forward to see behind the cyclic is necessary. The good thing is that those switches aren't really needed during times of high intensity.

 

I really don't see any problems with the Black Shark 6DOF cockpit when it comes to reaching switches but I feel TIR with 6DOF is a necessity.

[urze]

http://www.magictouch.com/42_touch.html :music_whistling:

[urze]

http://www.magictouch.com/42_touch.html :music_whistling:

We can custom make touch screen up to 80" (16:9 ratio), or any size with the shorter side no more than 39” (990 mm).

[mvsgas]

It is not always easier on a real cockpits

 

How realistic is it to have to duck your head down and move in close with TrackIR just to reach something the real pilot would just reach out and touch?

It is not always easier on a real cockpits. Some switches on aircraft that I have work on before are really hard to get and some pilots may not be able to reach them. Think about it, you me be flying a combat mission for several hours, you would be strap to that ejection seat, g-suit (some aircraft would have the vest to help pilots breath under "g") water, food,"piddle packs", helmet bag, survivable vest, 9mm hang gun, maps and books. You may have NVG and flash lights, ect. It can get pretty crowded in some of those cockpits.

[Prophet]

A nice 27'' LCD with custom touch overlay would be sweet :D

[urze]

Why think so small?

-Ok start with it as a middle monitor but than expand:

_______...__________... _______

I...........I I................I I...........I

I...4:3....I I......8:5.....I I....4:3...I

I_______I I__________I I_______I

 

Look this vid:at 3:10

It is right now possible to manage three monitors with different aspect ratio and also merged their borders in DX.

[nemises]

sheesh, I like your tripple head setup Urze..have you tried it angled and with 1:1 TIR ?