A finance Dev questing

[XLR8]

I have been reading about the development of games,the past couple of weeks.And watching the development of other game to be released in the future.Some are flight Sim games ,FPS and even a couple of roller coaster Sim games.

My questing, hopefully get a response from ED.How long did or dose it take to developer a game,the cost and the profit of the game.Also how many units do you plan on selling.

I have asked this questing on other sites developing games,some have replied some have not.

There will be no harm done if not ansered,as this is a random questing.

Thanks

[paladrian]

Perhaps this will give you a good idea :greedy:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=17573

[XLR8]

WOW! Thanks for the reply.How long has BS been in development.

[urze]

Hi XLR8,

check the interview with Jim from Sunday the 3rd November 2007 http://www.stage6.com/user/urze/video/1870101/Come-Join-Us-!--Simware-Simulation-Show-'08

at 16:52.

Jim:

"(...)It's been a two year investment of at least 45 people(...)"

[Ditch3r]

I would also suggest reading the following book....

 

http://www.amazon.com/Andrew-Rollings-Ernest-Design-Riders/dp/1592730019

 

Excellent information about what you are looking for.:)

[VMFA117_Poko]

Perhaps this will give you a good idea :greedy:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=17573

No, no, no... that can't be true. $50K for AI aircraft??? This a joke.

[urze]

http://lockon.ubisoft.de/journal.php

In meinem ersten Artikel mцchte ich mich zu einigen der Themen дuЯern, die in den offiziellen Lock On-Foren hдufig und heiЯ diskutiert werden. Wie bereits in der offiziellen Fragen- und Antwortenliste (FAQ) zu Lock On erwдhnt, werden wir keine weiteren wдhlbaren Flugzeuge in Lock On hinzufьgen. Ich weiЯ sehr wohl, dass viele Spieler sehr gern einen Tornado-Jet, eine F-16, eine Mirage oder eine F-14 fliegen wьrden, aber es geht nicht - zumindest nicht in der ersten Version von Lock On. Offenbar gibt es doch eine Menge falscher Vorstellungen darьber, was die Integration weiterer wдhlbarer Flugzeuge alles nach sich zieht. Ich mцchte gern einige dieser falschen Vorstellungen korrigieren.

 

Eines der wichtigsten Ziele von Lock on besteht darin, im Spiel eine authentische und hochgradig realistische Gefechtsumgebung zu simulieren. Ein Hauptaspekt ist hierbei die Nachbildung der Jets auf so exakte und realistische Weise, wie nur mцglich. Bei Lock On handelt es sich nicht um eine Simulation, die mцglichst viele Flugzeugtypen mit einer eher geringen Genauigkeit nachbildet. Wir konzentrieren uns statt dessen auf wenige Flugzeugtypen und bilden deren Eigenschaften so genau wie irgend mцglich nach. Warum Lock On genau diese wдhlbaren Jets enthдlt, ist in der Fragenliste (FAQ) erlдutert. Die Modellierung eines Flugzeuges ist eine immens umfangreiche Aufgabe. Es erfordert sehr viel Zeit und ebenso viele Ressourcen. Hier seien nur einige davon genannt: Erstellung der Avionik, Entwicklung des Cockpit, Nachbildung aller Systeme, Entwicklung des 3D-Modells, Programmierung der Flugeigenschaften, der Steuerflдchen, der Bewaffnung und der entsprechenden Schadensmodelle. Insbesondere die Entwicklung der Avionik ist ein дuЯerst kompliziertes und zeitaufwдndiges Unterfangen. Es ist viel komplizierter, als die meisten Menschen offensichtlich denken. Zu den genannten Dingen kommt noch ein ganzer Haufen weiterer Erfordernisse, was die Sache nicht gerade einfacher macht. Wollten wir beispielsweise einen Tornado oder eine Mirage hinzufьgen, mьssten wir eben auch den gesamten britischen oder franzцsischen Funkverkehr integrieren, ferner die richtige Struktur der Dienstgrade und der Befцrderungen, die entsprechenden Orden sowie die erforderlichen Unterstьtzungseinheiten. Bei der Integration einer F-14 wьrden die meisten Spieler zu Recht verlangen, zwischen vorderem und hinterem Sitz wechseln zu kцnnen. Auch auf die Simulation der Kommunikation mit dem Flugzeugtrдger wollte sicher niemand verzichten (immerhin fьnf Kommunikationssysteme), und Decksbesatzung, Rollwege an Deck etc. mьssten auch noch integriert werden. Sie sehen also, es steckt eine Menge Aufwand dahinter, ein neues Flugzeug zu integrieren. Ob ich selbst gerne weitere Flugzeuge dabei hдtte? Ja, natьrlich. Aber wir haben leider nur einen begrenzten Zeitrahmen und ein begrenztes Budget zur Verfьgung. Wir werden das beste Produkt entwickeln, das unter diesen Voraussetzungen mцglich ist. Die Integration eines neuen Flugzeugs beschrдnkt sich eben nicht darauf, ein neues 3D-Modell und ein neues Cockpit zu entwerfen. Wenn wir bei Lock On etwas machen, dann machen wir es richtig, oder gar nicht. Dies gilt insbesondere fьr Flugzeuge fьr die Spieler. Es wьrde der Qualitдt des Produkts nur schaden, wenn wir in diesem Entwicklungsstadium noch weitere Flugzeuge hinzufьgen wollten.

 

Nun mцchte ich etwas zu den Erwartungen vieler Anwender schreiben, dass Lock On jede nur denkbare Funktion aus jeder bisher erschienenen Flugsimulation haben mьsse. Wenn wir fьnf Jahre Zeit und ein paar Millionen Dollar zur Verfьgung hдtten, kцnnten wir das vielleicht sogar schaffen. In der Realitдt jedoch mьssen wir einige Entscheidungen treffen, welche Funktionen enthalten sein sollen, um ein tolles Produkt abzuliefern und das Erscheinungsdatum einhalten zu kцnnen. Es geht einfach nicht, jede wьnschenswerte Funktion zu integrieren, auch wenn ich selbst am liebsten genau das tun wьrde. Die Behauptung, Lock On wдre ohne spezielles Langstrecken-Stцrflugzeug oder ein Cockpit mit anklickbaren Elementen nicht spielbar, ist natьrlich falsch. Selbstverstдndlich wьrden diese Features das Produkt noch besser machen, aber ihr Fehlen wird den SpielspaЯ in keiner Weise beeintrдchtigen.

 

SchlieЯlich mцchte ich noch erklдren, warum wir zu einer ganzen Reihe von Merkmalen und Funktionen in Lock On noch nichts sagen kцnnen. Wir haben noch einige Monate Entwicklungsarbeit vor uns. In dieser Zeit kann sich noch eine Menge дndern. Genau aus diesem Grund kцnnen wir zu zahlreichen Aspekten von Lock On noch keine genauen Auskьnfte geben. Seien es nun die genauen Hardware-Anforderungen, der Dynamische Gefechts-Generator (Dynamic Battle Generator), der Multiplayer-Modus oder Detailangaben zur Avionik. Fьr alle gilt: Es ist noch zu frьh um genaue Details zu verцffentlichen. Erst wenn diese und weiter Bereiche genauere Gestalt angenommen haben, werden wir entsprechende Details bekannt geben.

 

Wenn Lock On sich erfolgreich verkauft, werden wir die Serie fortsetzen und durch neue wдhlbare Flugzeuge erweitern. Auch neue Funktionen kцnnen im weiteren Verlauf hinzugefьgt werden. Fьr den Moment ist der Funktionsumfang von Lock On allerdings abschlieЯend festgelegt. So kцnnen wir ein groЯartiges Produkt entwickeln, dass unseren hohen Ansprьchen gerecht wird.

 

Matt Wagner

Producer

Ubi Soft Entertainment

 

This is a article/statement given by Matt "wags"" Wagner at the 6th February 2002 about what realism could be included in LockOn.

 

For the given Topic I want to (re-)translate some parts of it ( English version is deleted by UbiSoft because there is no English LockOn page any more)

 

My translation:

In my first article, I would like to talk about some of the topics that are frequently and hotly debated in the official LockOn Forums.(...)I know very well that many players would be very happy to have a Tornado-Jet, an F-16, Mirage or an F-14 flying, but it's not -at least not in the first version of Lock On. Apparently there are a lot of false ideas about what is it about to integration one selectable additional aircraft. I would like to corrected some of these misconceptions.

(...)One of the key aspect here is the reproduction of the Jets on as accurate and realistic as possible.(...)We focus instead on a few aircraft types and their characteristics and make them as accurate as possible.(...)

The modeling of an airplane is an immense task.It requires much time and many resources.Here are just a few of which include: creation of avionics, development of the cockpit, after all educational systems, development of the 3D model, programming of the flight characteristics of the control surface, the weaponry and the related damage models.(...)Among the things mentioned, there is a whole bunch of additional requirements, the matter was not even easier.(...)If we would ,for example, integrate a Tornado or a Mirage, we also had to integrate, the whole British and French radio traffic...(...).

With the integration of an F-14 what the most players would rightly demand to be able to change between front and back seats and also the simulation of communication with the aircraft carrier would be necessary to ensure nobody renounce (at least five communications systems), and deck crew, taxiways on deck, and so on. should also be integrated. So you see, there is a lot of effort behind it, to a new plane.

But unfortunately, we have only a limited time frame and a limited budget. We will develop the best product, which under these conditions is possible. The integration of a new air plane is not just a new 3D model and a new cockpit design.(...)

 

Thanks for reading!

 

If you are not german and want to know all the info you can use http://translate.google.com to copy and paste the whole text.

:smilewink:

 

P.S. Thanks to 'Raven' aka 'golfsierra2' for finding this developer news on the old ubisoft LockOn forum!

[GreyStork]

No, no, no... that can't be true. $50K for AI aircraft??? This a joke.

 

Let's try to throw a few numbers out there and see what's involved. Let's say we put aside two months to develop an AI aircraft. That's about 45 effective work days, which translates to 360 hours. That's not a enormous amount of time, actually.

 

Let's then say that we need a 3D modeler to create the aircraft, the weapons, and rig the model for all the movable parts needed to animate it.

 

Then we need a graphics designer to create all the textures for the model, the weapons, and whatever else is needed.

 

Then we need programmers for creating the flight model, the sensor logic (laser designation, etc.), the weapons systems and actual weapons (those have flight models of their own), the player interface (you want to be able to issue commands to AI wingmen - or the AI 'central command' does), and of course the actual AI system that's supposed to fly the aircraft in an intelligent manner while taking into account threats, friendly units, and whatever objectives it is given. I'd say there's enough for two programmers in that lot.

 

Then there's all the background knowledge and planning stuff, like researching the real-world systems and capabilities of the aircraft and creating a ruleset for the programmers to use in programming AI sensor input, flight model, AI flight control inputs to match, responses to various threats, based on the capabilities of the aircraft, attack tactics in A/G and A/A scenarios. There's lots of that kind of stuff - enough for at least another person.

 

So here we have five people working for two months on an AI aircraft. Let's set their average yearly salary to $60,000. I know, that's ridiculously low. Five times two months amounts to 10 man-months, which then translates to $50,000.

 

If you think that's too many people or too much time, factor in expenses for computer equipment, software, office facilities, and things like cleaning services. It all adds up really quickly.

 

I don't think those $50k are much of a joke, actually. :thumbup:

[XLR8]

After doing some research and reading,I came to the conclusion that making a game is very expensive.Games can cost as little as $50,000 to as much as a blockbuster movie.

I did find out some interesting things,like EA games will make about 2 billion dollars this year.And the magic number that developers want to sell is 1 million copys.It can take 2 to 5 years to produce a single game.Thanks for all the replies.

I hope BS makes that magic number.Merry Christmas to all.

[leafer]

But, GreyStork, ED is in Russian where labor is cheap. I seriously doubt they pay their programmers American's salary. In fact, I'm willing to bet anything they make no where near $60,000 a year.

 

In my country, a construction worker makes about six dollars a day (half that for a woman) where as their counterparts in the U.S. make more in one hour. Not to mention the Americans recieve medicare and are treated like human beings and not low lives like the men and women who do hard labor work here.

 

A programmer in this country will be lucky if he or she makes 500 dollars a month; that's 6000 dollars a year.

[urze]

But, GreyStork, ED is in Russian where labor is cheap.

 

Sorry leaver, but that's a very poor argument!

We are not talking about an Indian or Chinese company that is actualizing maps or telephone books for cell phones!

Eagle Dynamics is a very unique software developer in a global market, so why sell something special cheaper than anybody else would do it ?

And don't forget that they make training software for the US government.

[Phantom_Mark]

But, GreyStork, ED is in Russian where labor is cheap. I seriously doubt they pay their programmers American's salary. In fact, I'm willing to bet anything they make no where near $60,000 a year.

 

In my country, a construction worker makes about six dollars a day (half that for a woman) where as their counterparts in the U.S. make more in one hour. Not to mention the Americans recieve medicare and are treated like human beings and not low lives like the men and women who do hard labor work here.

 

A programmer in this country will be lucky if he or she makes 500 dollars a month; that's 6000 dollars a year.

 

 

You have not accounted for the huge and massive difference in the cost of living, ie housing and food and general living expenses, whilst your comment is valid to some degree everything mentioned in your post is relative, I do not think its fair to make such a comment without properly quantifying it :music_whistling:

[Groove]

Cost of Developement for Crysis: ~ 18.000.000 Euro

[Grimes]

and even a couple of roller coaster Sim games.

 

I think No Limits is the exception to the rule where its development isn't done by a full time staff. Some of the ride demos Vekoma Motorbike and Eurofighter were commissioned by the parks or manufacturer for promotional purposes. Since all those demos get made for what is basically NL it is easily imported into the retail version of the game. Some of that is true with flight sims as ED has made an A-10C training tool however certain information regarding that is classified, so they can't exactly copy and paste it into the game. Plus I doubt its built the same way as DCS is in terms of the difference between a video game and a training simulation.

[VMFA117_Poko]

Cost of Developement for Crysis: ~ 18.000.000 Euro

:surprise:

 

It's so expensive business and risky. Imagine that a company can bankrut by betting on wrong card. Black Shark has to get profit then. ED should put advertising into most popular gaming and aviation press (like PC Gamer, AirForce Monthly, etc.). Thanks God the politics of the company has pretty changed for good. I keep fingers strong crossed for success. But I no doubt this is a high definition simulation no one has seen before. But maybe not everyone from aviation community knows.

[JimMack]

A couple of comments about the cost of development.

1. Greystork's analysis of the tasks involved is a good summary for developing an AI aircraft, but do not underestimate the research work that is necessary even before even one line of code is written for a new aircraft.

2. The cost of development is not the base salary x manyears. If any of you are thinking of running your own business, and charge your time out at salary, then you will go bankrupt very quickly! As a rule of thumb you need take (salary+employment costs) x 2 in order to pay for all the overheads:- offices, management, sales and marketing, administration, taxes etc etc.

Example: EA's financials for the last announced quarter (June 2007)

Sales $395M

Cost of Goods $137M

Development $250M (note: in addition some development is charged to the Balance Sheet)

Admin $153M

[EA made a loss in that quarter, but will make it up in the next 2 quarters - holiday season)

3. A new AI aircraft does not make any revenue, unless the community would like to pay for it!

4. Russian labor costs for high quality programmers may ten years ago have been much cheaper than in the West, but now it is not significantly so - Try taking a shopping trip to Moscow to see what goods cost!

5. Game Development costs are now typically $5M-$15M spread across 1 -3 systems (PC, PS3, XBOX 360). Unfortunately not every title can get into the world top ten and sell 1M+ units, it is a risky business!

[leafer]

I know about the cost of living vs salary paid so on and so forth.

But did you guys read his post? He gave example why it may have cost ED, a Russian company, 50K to develop one AI aircraft. But he did it with salary based on programmers living in the U.S. or the likes. Perhaps it was the way I said it in my post, sorry, I'm not saying people in developed country should be paid less.

[leafer]

JimMack,

 

with all due respect, the same tv set, computer, purse, bar of soap cost the same for people in the U.S. as in this country. In some cases such as computer hardware, cars, designer cloths cost a lot more here than in the U.S. That's why we, I'm positive where ED is located as well, have brand X tv sets, bars of soap, monitors, etc.

[urze]

Leafer,

 

with all due respect, what you want to say with that or what you want to point out with that?

If you mean it could be managed with much more less cost that some persons mentioned here I'm in! Let's start - I have serious plans for business!

:)

Oh - we have no working filghtsim engine right now - than lets buy one from someone who have made on or programme it by our self.

Oh- I see... we have to spend thousands of money first without having a model to fly!

Hmm... Mabyee this is also a reason why it cost more than you/we can imagine in the first place.

 

And I think something to wash yourself and a working TV is one of the last problems in creating it.

I for instance have no fun developing something , putting my creativity in it and thinking about solving problems even when I'm asleep when I know I'm getting not the money that I deserve for it.

And as a result of it I'm worrying how to pay for my family and the education for my children for instance while programming for a company.

 

So please do yourself a favour and don't say that living in Russia is cheap

I was 10 years ago working in Russia and was astonished how quick capitalism

manifested there and even worse what I have seen in Germany or the US before.

 

I don't want to vindicate the costs Jim listed here or find them adequate for what you get, but its the way the things go in politics and economy these days and I'm looking sad to our near future.

But this doesn't fit in a discussion forum about flight simulation.

[GreyStork]

I'm impressed that my comment stirred that much discussion, and to answer a few of the questions - yes, I was basing my employee salary estimates on US figures, but as someone else pointed out, the salary gap is closing for sought-after professionals in Europe (including Eastern Europe) and Russia. This is true, even in India, these days.

 

And yes, the cost of living should be taken into consideration, not least the cost of housing. Try to research home prices in San Francisco, where many of the biggest software companies in the US are located. You can spend a million dollars very quickly, just for a place to live.

 

That said, there is of course still an abysmal salary gap in many countries, compared to the US. The open world market has a way of evening things out, though. If labor is cheap somewhere, rich countries will spend their money there to get the most goods for their buck. That inflow of cash will eventually raise living standards and allow the developing country to produce more advanced goods, which can be sold for a higher price. The more advanced the goods are, the less of a price difference you need to be competitive.

 

Being European of birth and now living in the US, it seems to me that life also gets more complicated the more money you have. There are many more choices to make and a lot more people who try to make you give them your money. Money does not necessarily equal happiness, I can tell you that. It has a way of controlling you through the things you have to do to keep it. Money certainly does not set you free.

 

Freedom is being able to appreciate what you do for a living, appreciate the people around you, and the place where you live. To modify a famous Kennedy quote a bit: Ask not what you want to have, but what you want to do. I've found that it's better to accept that the odds are against you when it comes to rising above your peers in terms of wealth. If you constantly think about what you'll gain from the things you do, that will suck the joy of doing them right out of you. If you can shed your artificially created wants and figure out what you really need, as a humble human being, that will set you free.

 

Now you all probably think I'm a Taoist, and maybe you're right. :smilewink:

 

________________________________________________

Note:

 

I'm afraid I tend to get rather philosophical when sleep-deprived; sorry about that. :)

[Avimimus]

Of course, one has to take into account the quality of training and work experience of some of the staff. Management attitudes and dedication to the product also matter. Is it merely a co-incidence that Flanker 2.5 was released for free and Il-2 received so many free patches?

[Avimimus]

And yes, the cost of living should be taken into consideration, not least the cost of housing. Try to research home prices in San Francisco, where many of the biggest software companies in the US are located. You can spend a million dollars very quickly, just for a place to live.

 

Of course, Moscow is one of the most expensive cities existing to live in.

[XLR8]

Thanks for the reply JimMack.

[kiss4luna]

A programmer in this country will be lucky if he or she makes 500 dollars a month; that's 6000 dollars a year.

 

 

Jesus.

In my Country, an experienced programmer can make more than $1000/month. A junior programmer can only make $400/month.

 

But goddamn it, the price of pork has risen to $3.46/kg, and our people's average sallary level is around $400/month. Want to buy a house? $1000/sq.Meter to $3000/sq.Meter! **** it. A 3x2 meter rented room can cost $150/month! Shit!

[kiss4luna]

All ED guys, from 2003 to 2006, I've bought 5 copies of LOMAC and 1 copy of LOFC.

Support your business!