I admire the KA-50 but....

[Looney]

me again, speaking of GCI/AWACS, do you know If can setup bullseye or something similar into ABRIS?

 

In theory you could use an ERBL but that's really pushing it. You'll take too long manipulating the ABRIS to get actual bearing and distance to the threat rather then react to it.

 

It would be better to ask a human AWACS/GCI to give BRAA calls to you.

 

What helps a bit is to memorize the bullseye position relative to where your area of operation. Yo'll be able to make guestimates about which calls are relevant and which are not.

 

For KA50s in the wing, we always use BRAA calls to increase their SA. A Senior Director on board the AWACS will call flights of A10s and/or KA50s and have them flow to a safer area while (re)directing CAP assets to intercept the threat.

[Blackjack_UK]

I guess the alternative for helos is for AWACS to call "SCRAM" but that won't work properly until the vast cloud of dust generated by a chopper on the deck, regardless of terrain, is fixed...

[Volator]

I guess the alternative for helos is for AWACS to call "SCRAM" but that won't work properly until the vast cloud of dust generated by a chopper on the deck, regardless of terrain, is fixed...

 

That cloud of dust certainly is a major issue especially for online flying. Once below 30-40 ft you trail a big, nice dust cloud behind your chopper, very easy to see for any prowling fighter. So as a chopper pilot you can choose: Do I fly low enough to avoid radar detection but reveal my position visually to anybody around, or do I fly high enough to avoid the cloud dust but then make a nice target for radar interception?

 

Has it been adressed to ED as something to be fixed?

[Blackjack_UK]

It has, I believe, yes.

 

Might be worth mentioning it again though...

 

Edited to say it's reported so hopefully in the fix cycle:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=243817

Edited May 1, 2020 by Blackjack_UK

[randomTOTEN]

So as a chopper pilot you can choose: Do I fly low enough to avoid radar detection but reveal my position visually to anybody around, or do I fly high enough to avoid the cloud dust but then make a nice target for radar interception?

1. How are these not realistic limitations and choices to be made?

2. Where's your air cover or terrain masking?

[Volator]

1. How are these not realistic limitations and choices to be made?

 

Since when does flying as low as possible reveal your position visually in real life? In DCS it does in a chopper due to the dust, maybe you misunderstood this.

 

2. Where's your air cover or terrain masking?

For the former, ask the Top Gun jet flyboys, for the latter, see above.

[Frederf]

I guess the alternative for helos is for AWACS to call "SCRAM" but that won't work properly until the vast cloud of dust generated by a chopper on the deck, regardless of terrain, is fixed...

 

The dust eventually dissipates if you hover in the same spot for a while. Realistically the only way to evade radar detection for 4th gen fighters is to shut down and stop the rotors.

[Blackjack_UK]

The dust doesn't dissipate fast enogh. But much of the time there shouldn't be dust...

[randomTOTEN]

So what?

Why does a fighter jet have enough time to look for a dust cloud on the ground?

Shouldn't he be searching for the fighter cover you brought, and is about to shoot him down?

Terrain masking doesn't mean "fly below 30ft," (although it can mean that). Put the terrain between the radar sensor and your rotor blades. In mountainous terrain you can do that and still be at 500ft AGL.

 

 

Since when does flying as low as possible reveal your position visually in real life? In DCS it does in a chopper due to the dust, maybe you misunderstood this.

You can argue about what types of terrain this should occur, and perhaps under what conditions, but the fact is that this phenomenon does exist (pic pulled from the wikipedia page) and it is something real operators have to contend with.

 

 

For the former, ask the Top Gun jet flyboys,

No, we'll ask you. Since you made the decision to depart with no protection.... and no plan to avoid detection.

for the latter, see above.

Again, Terrain Masking is not always NOE. Edited May 1, 2020 by randomTOTEN

[Volator]

Those were two fine examples of of know-it-all lecture. You fail to understand the dynamics of this simulation in multiplayer on public servers. Also, people bring up legitimate concern about downwash-related dust, and you lecture about organizing fighter cover? Check your attitude, Mister.

[Oceandar]

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/attack-helicopter-crews-explain-why-an-attack-helicopter-if-properly-flown-would-defeat-most-fighter-airplanes-in-1v1-air-combat/

[CaptainX]

I don't really see what the drama is all about, I play KA-50 even when I shouldn't, on multiplayer PVP servers, and yeah I occasionally eat an aim-120, however it also gives me an exhilarating sense of fear and sometimes I have the opportunity to fight back, last week an f-18 tried to gun me down and I successfully evaded him and we were in a cat and mouse fight for a while and I almost gunned him down, if I had iglas he would be done.

 

Whenever I have an objective I always try and follow a route that leaves me concealed, like flying between buildings and such. It's a lot of fun IMO.

[Baaz]

People are always quick to say how helos don't do this or that without air cover.

 

Yet in 1990 a 8 Apaches, 2 Pavelow III's and 2 Blackhawks did exactly what many want to say they don't do when they fired the opening shots of Desert Storm; knocking out Iraqi radar sites to clear the way for Allied airstrikes. That's right, they went in because it was too risky for it to be done any other way.

 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/desert-storms-opening-shots-came-from-this-daring-helic-1753466057

 

All I want is the ability to do the same thing in DCS. However, the problem with DCS is the multiplayer UI that shows exactly who's flying what, and from where. Remove this stupid UI, and maybe we'd have planes flying CAP like they're suppose to at 30,000 feet instead of 50' scanning for choppers. We won't even talk about the all-seeing eye of the AI.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Baaz

[blunt_waco]

People are always quick to say how helos don't do this or that without air cover.

 

Yet in 1990 a 8 Apaches, 2 Pavelow III's and 2 Blackhawks did exactly what many want to say they don't do when they fired the opening shots of Desert Storm; knocking out Iraqi radar sites to clear the way for Allied airstrikes. That's right, they went in because it was too risky for it to be done any other way.

 

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/desert-storms-opening-shots-came-from-this-daring-helic-1753466057

 

All I want is the ability to do the same thing in DCS. However, the problem with DCS is the multiplayer UI that shows exactly who's flying what, and from where. Remove this stupid UI, and maybe we'd have planes flying CAP like they're suppose to at 30,000 feet instead of 50' scanning for choppers. We won't even talk about the all-seeing eye of the AI.

 

 

Yea, there is a reason Boeing slapped AN/APR-39 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) on its longbow variant :music_whistling:

[Baaz]

Yea, there is a reason Boeing slapped AN/APR-39 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) on its longbow variant :music_whistling:

 

Someone clearly did not read the attached article :music_whistling:.

 

These Apaches were not Longbows. They were A variants that did not even have the sophisticated navigation we have today. Hence why it was Air Force Pave Low III's that led the way. The sole purpose of the Apache was its firepower.

 

Fact is, for every person that says something shouldn't be done, there will always be someone else to show that it shall be done.

 

In DCS there's two primary examples:

 

1. Ka-50's will always continue to try and hit behind enemy lines without air cover (one of my fondest memories on DDCS server was taking off from Beslan as Lead in a two-ship flight of KA-50's to hit Sochi Adler. We took off from Beslan to make the enemy CAP think we were heading to Tblisi since I knew they could see where we were taking off from. We were quite successful in our mission, but it certainly was not for everyone as it was over 3 hours of flight time round trip); and

2. CAP will continue to be done at less than 1000' AGL.

 

Now the reasons the above will continue to happen is:

 

1. The spirit that makes up every helicopter pilot in DCS; and

2. the simple fact that there's a Multiplayer UI that allows players to see what's opposing them, from where opposing forces are departing, and allow them to search accordingly, and often successfully, with or without AWACS or radar scanning.

 

Now, I'm not saying I have a problem eating a missile or two. Nor do I have an issue with not having an RWR. The problem(s) I have is when things are spotting and tracking me when they shouldn't, as flying behind hillsides and buildings all mean nothing when you're still tracked by both radar and missiles; and the enemy often having just as much intel on my mission as I do.

 

The OP showed the TacView of the mission he flew. If you watch it, you'll see that SU-27 spawned and made a direct line for him; ignoring all other blue aircraft much closer and engaging friendly aircraft. At no time was the OP picked up on radar, as he never entered any radar covered zone. That's the problem with the all-seeing eye of the AI that no one wants to address.

 

Anyway, it's late. I'm tired, and I'm losing my train of thought. But, I think you can see where I believe the problems lie.

[randomTOTEN]

Baaz, I agree with almost everything you said. If I could question you on this one statement.

At no time was the OP picked up on radar, as he never entered any radar covered zone.

I don't use Tacview myself, but I assume those circles are the maximum engagement zones for the Sams? Or are they detection zones?

 

At the very start of his track, he appears to (potentially) be within LOS of possibly several enemy radars. My guesses are 75nm from an S-300 east of Krasnodar, 100nm from the Buk southeast of Maykop, and probably 100nm from that A-50 circling Russian airspace.

Could these sensors have detected his approach, and allowed AI Command and Control to predict his path (and perhaps target), and assign an Su-27 intercept?

 

Even despite the limitations of the AI this seems probable...

[AlphaOneSix]

Yea, there is a reason Boeing slapped AN/APR-39 Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) on its longbow variant :music_whistling:

 

Every Apache ever in U.S. service has had the AN/APR-39 radar warning receiver, as well as the AN/ALQ-136 radar jammer. Oh and a chaff dispenser, too.

[Baaz]

Baaz, I agree with almost everything you said. If I could question you on this one statement.

I don't use Tacview myself, but I assume those circles are the maximum engagement zones for the Sams? Or are they detection zones?

 

At the very start of his track, he appears to (potentially) be within LOS of possibly several enemy radars. My guesses are 75nm from an S-300 east of Krasnodar, 100nm from the Buk southeast of Maykop, and probably 100nm from that A-50 circling Russian airspace.

Could these sensors have detected his approach, and allowed AI Command and Control to predict his path (and perhaps target), and assign an Su-27 intercept?

 

Even despite the limitations of the AI this seems probable...

 

The larger zone is the search coverage, and the smaller is engagement.

 

Now, what I had not noticed till watching it for the umpteenth time is the AWACS on the east side (sorry, was focused on the Su-27 and Ka-50). It is possible that he was picked up by AWACS. Again, sorry, it's too early in the morning for me to do geometry to see if he was or not.

 

The question now is: if he were picked up by AWACS, would a human player disregard the much closer threats already engaging friendlies, or would he/she continue as the AI did and fly 100 km to engage a lonely helo? That one can only be answered by each individual pilot.

[IVAN01rch]

I can recommend BuddySpike server to all of you guys. I tried to fly Ka-50 on many servers Cold War included. Buddy Spike is the best. Lots of players on Persian gulf map. Persistent combat situation, if you destroyed something it will stay this way for days till it is repaired. Limited lifes which makes every kill and death meaningfull (lifes reset every 5 hours). Players playing magic on the SRS very often. Lot of comunication between players. You can find a wolf pack of ka-50 to fly with very often. http://gadget.buddyspike.net/#

Mission pattern leads to frequent choper vs choper situations. It is really fun to fight Mistral Gazelle.

[blunt_waco]

I can recommend BuddySpike server to all of you guys. I tried to fly Ka-50 on many servers Cold War included. Buddy Spike is the best. Lots of players on Persian gulf map. Persistent combat situation, if you destroyed something it will stay this way for days till it is repaired. Limited lifes which makes every kill and death meaningfull (lifes reset every 5 hours). Players playing magic on the SRS very often. Lot of comunication between players. You can find a wolf pack of ka-50 to fly with very often. http://gadget.buddyspike.net/#

Mission pattern leads to frequent choper vs choper situations. It is really fun to fight Mistral Gazelle.

 

 

I have seen them before, aren't they PvP?

Do they have Discord channel?

Edited May 8, 2020 by blunt_waco

[IVAN01rch]

I have seen them before, aren't they PvP?

Do they have Discord channel?

They are PVP. Most comunications is via SRS.