Latest flap changes

[Kula66]

I know flaps on the 14 are a contentious topic, but any more detailed information on the following changes please??

 

* Reduced flap pitch moment and adjusted it vs. airspeed

* Adjusted flap lift and drag at speeds above deploy speed limit

 

In my very quick test, they seem much draggier.

 

Thanks,

James

Edited May 21, 2020 by Kula66

[fat creason]

Flap drag was increased for flap deployments beyond the maneuvering range (i.e. full flaps) when well above the approved flap speed limit of 225 KIAS. Some people abuse full flap deployments to gain a BFM advantage, things like the would never be done in real life. I'm working on some additional flap torque tube shearing (aka flap jamming) logic for the next patch.

Edited May 21, 2020 by fat creason

[Kula66]

Hi, many thanks for the reply ... I am one of the flap abusers!

 

From my limited understanding, the 225kts limit is a 'soft' limit designed to reduce maintenance rather than a 'they break at 226kts' (like the 14s G soft limit) and that they were used in BFM beyond this speed even in training (as mentioned by Paco in his excellent commentary on MFTC). I'm sure in a real fight to the death, future maintenance issues are probably low on your list of priorities!

 

PS> Love your work on the 14 and thanks again for the quick response!

[eatthis]

what is the proper flap never exceed speed? iv used them once in bfm (kept it as close to 270kts as poss) and was mega lol i do use when speed gets real low but try to retract them above 250kts

[fat creason]

Man flaps can be used at higher speeds, full flaps should not be deployed above 250 KIAS at most. If you actuate the flaps above 250 you run the risk of shearing the torque tubes. The flaps do not break instantly at 226 KIAS.

[dekiplav]

Flap drag was increased for flap deployments beyond the maneuvering range (i.e. full flaps) when well above the approved flap speed limit of 225 KIAS. Some people abuse full flap deployments to gain a BFM advantage, things like the would never be done in real life. I'm working on some additional flap torque tube shearing (aka flap jamming) logic for the next patch.

 

Is drag increased when using maneuvering flaps also? If you are not using full flaps for BFM, is the FM same as before the patch?

[Airhunter]

Is drag increased when using maneuvering flaps also? If you are not using full flaps for BFM, is the FM same as before the patch?

 

Yes, leading edge flaps and the outboard trailing edge flaps deploy causing more drag and more lift at the same time. You should never ever use full flaps in BFM. Unless you are maybe going for a min radius turn below 220kts, but even then in a dirty config the Tomcat is very G limited.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Airhunter

[Voyager]

Flap drag was increased for flap deployments beyond the maneuvering range (i.e. full flaps) when well above the approved flap speed limit of 225 KIAS. Some people abuse full flap deployments to gain a BFM advantage, things like the would never be done in real life. I'm working on some additional flap torque tube shearing (aka flap jamming) logic for the next patch.

 

Cool. Was this not in there before, or is this just additional refinements to existing flap jam logic?

 

I recall early on when I was trying manual flaps that I did manage to jam one of them in the deployed position. I actually thought it was fun trying to figure out how to RTB with one of the onboard flaps jammed in the down position, but haven't run into that again.

[fat creason]

This drag change was for flap deployments beyond maneuver flaps at speeds way above the max full flap deploy speed. The flaps can jam now, but they are too robust and will be easier to jam in the future if you're overspeeding them and under moderate to high G load, i.e. doing 275 KIAS and pulling 3+ G

Edited May 21, 2020 by fat creason

[eatthis]

manuevering flaps are automatic arnt they??

[QuiGon]

This drag change was for flap deployments beyond maneuver flaps at speeds way above the max full flap deploy speed. The flaps can jam now, but they are too robust and will be easier to jam in the future if you're overspeeding them and under moderate to high G load, i.e. doing 275 KIAS and pulling 3+ G

I like this! :thumbup:

[TLTeo]

manuevering flaps are automatic arnt they??

 

 

Yes, but you can also control them with the DLC thumbwheel

[eatthis]

Yes, but you can also control them with the DLC thumbwheel

 

Thanks for that, i didnt know.

Whst circumstances would you want to use manual maneuver flaps?

[IronMike]

Thanks for that, i didnt know.

Whst circumstances would you want to use manual maneuver flaps?

 

 

Slow orbits for example. They deploy below a certain speed which acts like a speedbrake that you do not want at that moment. According to our SME they sometimes clinged on to them to keep them in till the fingers hurt, hehe.

[eatthis]

Slow orbits for example. They deploy below a certain speed which acts like a speedbrake that you do not want at that moment. According to our SME they sometimes clinged on to them to keep them in till the fingers hurt, hehe.

 

Lol

[draconus]

Slow orbits for example. They deploy below a certain speed which acts like a speedbrake that you do not want at that moment. According to our SME they sometimes clinged on to them to keep them in till the fingers hurt, hehe.

Wasn't dogfighting the main use for manual maneuvering flaps?

[captain_dalan]

Wasn't dogfighting the main use for manual maneuvering flaps?

Well, as soon as you pull some AoA, they gonna drop anyways. I can see some use for dropping them in advance, before you actually pull on the stick, if i.e. you are over the top and inverted. I don't know if it would actually make that much of a difference though.... :joystick:

[Kula66]

Have a listen to Paco's brief reference in the first MftC stream ... interesting - yes, full flaps were used during training BFM sorties and yes, there was a significant risk they'd jam, unless you were very careful!

[Hummingbird]

Just leave it in auto, it's what the real pilots would do.

 

The abuse of the flaps is just, ugh... esp. since most end up jamming them, i.e they only care about winning that one dogfight at all costs, even if their aircraft is broken and a sitting duck to everyone else afterwards.

 

Win the dogfight whilst leaving it in auto, just like the real pilots, the aircraft is perfectly capable of this vs all other fighters in the sim, and on the plus side you wont cause self inflicted damage doing so.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Hummingbird

[fat creason]

Just leave it in auto, it's what the real pilots would do.

 

The abuse of the flaps is just, ugh... esp. since most end up jamming them, i.e they only care about winning that one dogfight at all costs, even if their aircraft is broken and a sitting duck to everyone else afterwards.

 

Win the dogfight whilst leaving it in auto, just like the real pilots, the aircraft is perfectly capable of this vs all other fighters in the sim, and on the plus side you wont cause self inflicted damage doing so.

 

This. The next patch will make it worse for people who abuse the flaps while simultaneously making the flap drive mechanism more realistic.

[Kula66]

Just leave it in auto, it's what the real pilots would do.

 

Its a video game ... a great game, but just a game.

 

PS> You may have guessed, I'm not a real pilot ;)

[Hummingbird]

This. The next patch will make it worse for people who abuse the flaps while simultaneously making the flap drive mechanism more realistic.

 

:thumbup:

[Erikki]

Flap drag was increased for flap deployments beyond the maneuvering range (i.e. full flaps) when well above the approved flap speed limit of 225 KIAS. Some people abuse full flap deployments to gain a BFM advantage, things like the would never be done in real life. I'm working on some additional flap torque tube shearing (aka flap jamming) logic for the next patch.

 

"things like the would never be done in real life" .Are you sure?:smilewink:

 

check out this video below, the famous Capt. Dale "Snort" Snodgrass, play forward too 38min en 05 sec.

https://airandspace.si.edu/events/vice-adm-donald-d-engen-flight-jacket-night-2

 

also 1hour, 09min and 40 sec is interesting!

 

 

Erikki

Edited May 22, 2020 by Erikki

[Airhunter]

"things like the would never be done in real life" .Are you sure?:smilewink:

 

check out this video below, the famous Capt. Dale "Snort" Snodgrass, play forward too 38min en 05 sec.

https://airandspace.si.edu/events/vice-adm-donald-d-engen-flight-jacket-night-2

 

also 1hour, 09min and 40 sec is interesting!

 

 

Erikki

 

He did mention pulling the AUX flaps circuitbraker which are the main inboard flaps. Also pulled the mid compressor bypass CB which gave the TF30 2k lbs of extra thrust haha. What a guy.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Airhunter

[Hummingbird]

Its a video game ... a great game, but just a game.

 

PS> You may have guessed, I'm not a real pilot ;)

 

A game, sure, but in the enthusiast/professional simulator category. Hence there are some boundaries you want to stay within unless you want to lose that distinction of "simulator"

 

Specifically I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to use the aux flaps in a fight if you so wish. Everything you can or could do in real life should be possible in a sim. What I am saying is that with this freedom the realistic consequences, both aerodynamically & damage wise, should accompany a decision to do so, otherwise it becomes very gamey.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Hummingbird